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Thread: Short drive to get inxpensive gas- NOT

  1. #1
    Silver Hawk Member 53k's Avatar
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    Short drive to get inxpensive gas- NOT

    For several years I have driven 10 miles to a local Liberty gas station to fill my "real gas" cans. Wednesday I poured the last of the gasoline in to my two Gravely tractors and some other equipment so Wednesday I strapped my two six-gallon cans and one five-gallon can in the back of my truck and made the usual 10-mile drive to replenish my fuel supply. When I got to the Liberty station I found that the pumps were gone and the tanks were being dug out. So, I drove home to plan a somewhat longer run for the "real gas". I knew that Winchester, Virginia, about 25 miles away had lots of real gas. So I fired up my faithful, but thirsty '95 Dodge again. Problem was my low fuel warning light came on so I decided to stop and spend $15 about five miles from home to put five gallons in the tank. I knew gasoline across the border was often as much as $.40 a gallon cheaper so I was looking forward to a cheap fill of my 35-gallon tank. Went on to Winchester only to find that Virginia gasoline was now as much or more than my WV gas. I needed the "real gas" so I went on to the nearest Liberty station. Real gas was $3.059/gallon. There went $52.06, but I decided to go back to West Virginia to finish filling with cheaper gas (unbelievable). There I filled with 87 octane 10 percent ethanol gas at $2.659, total $70.37. So my gas can trip cost me an unplanned total of $137.44.

    I know that gasoline can be a lot more expensive in other places in the US and especially in Canada so I sympathize with you. I just needed to rant a little bit.

    Paul Johnson, Wild and Wonderful West Virginia.
    '64 Daytona Wagonaire, '64 Avanti R-1, Museum R-4 engine, '72 Gravely Model 430 with Onan engine

  2. #2
    Golden Hawk Member BobPalma's Avatar
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    Paul, I can't remember when "real" gas was as low as $3.059 in central Indiana. You've got it pretty good.

    I filled up my Wagonaire (yes, the one that has "your" P195/75R15 tires on it!) at $3.599 per gallon two weeks ago and was happy to get it. Thankfully, however, that station is but 4 miles from my house. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

  3. #3
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    It's almost impossible to get "real" gas around these heeyah pawts, (Austin, TX), but the corn gas on the corner from me is $2.39 per gallon which after reading the above posts indicates that it's gonna be costly to get the rusty Cruiser from RI to Tx I guess...

  4. #4
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    I sympathize. I have quite purposefully avoided even looking at the price I have to pay for ethanol-free gasoline (at that same Martinsburg Liberty station) and certainly don't even consider the amount of fuel I'm burning to get there. I am both resentful and jealous of those who respond to my whining about ethanol in gas by blithely suggesting that I just go find some real gas without it. The real gas website is helpful, but lists nothing nearby. I have resorted to throwing a couple of empty gas cans into the trunk whenever we take a road trip to somewhere more rural. My wife is not pleased when the smell of gasoline invades the cabin on the way back home.

  5. #5
    Golden Hawk Member jclary's Avatar
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    Good Grief!!! I'm still angry after gas went up to 32cents per gallon! (1971)

    The real shocker came in around 2004 when I began to partner with my older brother in the independent trucker LTL Freight Expediting business. It was during that time that diesel fuel price spiked and began to cost more than gasoline. I was off somewhere in Texas when my wife received a call from the credit card company I used exclusively for fuel. They were used to my relatively high monthly gas charges from my earlier work as an industrial salesman with a three-state territory. However, nothing had prepared them for seeing a single fill-up of over $600! They called to make sure my card had not been stolen! I returned the call to the credit card company and assured them that the charges were legitimate. That particular truck had twin 75-gallon tanks. During that time, fuel theft spiked on such trucks when parked at truck stops and company parking lots. I installed locks on mine. Hired drivers hated having to fool with the locks. I offered to remove them if the drivers would pay for their own fuel. None of them took me up on the offer but still complained about the locks.

    I'm fortunate to have several nearby ethanol free sources. I keep several cans for my yard & garden implements. I also have a new separate gas can for the very expensive ethanol-free premium grade that my BMW motorcycle requires. Nonethanol premium sources are 5 and 20 miles away. Fortunately, this motorcycle gets over 50mpg. So far, I have not been able to ride enough to get worked up too much about the expense on the bike.
    John Clary
    Greer, SC
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    SDC member since 1975

  6. #6
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    I use E10 in my daily drivers, my 3 collector cars (stock 1930 Model A, aluminum Rover V8 powered MGB, SBC powered 914 Porsche), my lawn mowers, power washer, chain saw, etc. I have never experienced a fuel system problem that others relate to E10. I do not store my small motors with fuel in the tanks or carb. I do put Stabil in my collector car fuel tanks for the winter (even though we can drive our collector cars year round here, I rarely run out more than a tank in the winter).

    I know there are folks who feel the E10 has caused a lot of problems for them and some even have pretty convincing anecdotal evidence. There are others (like me) that haven't had the same issues. There are states (like California) where it is impossible to buy ethanol free gas. Some there with collector cars report problems with E10, some experience none.

    I would think that if E10 was the cause of the problems reported by some, that we would all experience the same problems. What gives?
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

  7. #7
    President Member (S)'s Avatar
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    Our real gas was 4.02 last I checked, but it was on the way up. I've had problems with E10 eating at rubber fuel lines, but the new rubber is much better.
    I think over the years, the refinery has made it less corrosive. Ten years ago, it was more of a problem.

    I have a carb I need to go through soon that had 12 years on the stuff. I'll let you know what it looks like inside

  8. #8
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    At least some of the reported problems with E10 are real. I have a chain saw that has become unusable due to E10-induced swelling of various fuel components, including the gas cap. As an experiment, I let it dry out and gave it some expensive real gas -- problem went away. The instructions for our new weed whacker warns against using E10 that is more than 30 days old.

    But to partly answer Dick's specific question, I think part of the problem is that E10 gas seems to go bad rather quickly compared to real gas. So if you drive your old cars regularly and keep the fuel fresh, then you seem to have fewer problems with E10. I have 8 old vehicles that are driven only rarely (if ever) November-March. And even during summer, one or two of them are usually out of service for some major restoration/repair job -- so they don't get driven at all. Yet they all have gas in them. Draining the tank is not only a PITA, but not really possible on some of them. The E10 starts smelling bad after a couple of months, and drive-ability suffers. Real gas, when I go the trouble and expense of getting it, lasts a year or more.

    My rear problem with E10 is that ethanol was included as a possible oxygenate in the 1990s legislation that mandated the use of oxygenated fuels as a way to obtain the support of grain-belt members of Congress. There is not (never has been) any proof that adding ethanol to gasoline helps air quality or reduces our (now declining) dependence on imported oil, when all factors are included. The ethanol lobby has prevented all efforts by the EPA or others to actually determine if this whole drill makes sense. I would be more amenable to being forced to pay a subsidy to corn farmers and ethanol distillers if there was some indication that it was actually doing some good.

  9. #9
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Lackie View Post
    At least some of the reported problems with E10 are real. I have a chain saw that has become unusable due to E10-induced swelling of various fuel components, including the gas cap.

    But to partly answer Dick's specific question, I think part of the problem is that E10 gas seems to go bad rather quickly compared to real gas. So if you drive your old cars regularly and keep the fuel fresh, then you seem to have fewer problems with E10.
    That could be it, Skip.

    Older fuel system soft components do not like E10. If you haven't replaced those old hoses, diaphragms, gaskets, accelerator pumps, etc., you are probably more likely to experience problems. A mandatory part of my check list when I get a "new" old car. My small motors are all relatively new (<10 years). I haven't replaced (or cleaned) any fuel system parts. I did have to replace one of my mowers this year, however. The steel deck finally rusted through. The B&S is still running strong, however, if anyone needs one

    I do drive my old cars quite a bit...and since I know I won't be driving them as regularly in the winter, I add Stabil. Cars of any age don't like to sit. Engines, transmissions, rear ends, brakes, tires, etc. want to be moving. Besides the fuel loosing volatility (it will happen with pure gas also...just maybe slower), water will be condensing in the tank, oil pan, brake system, etc. Brake pistons will be settling in and ultimately freezing in position. Tires will be flat spotting and rotting. If you are not keen on driving these old cars, it is probably good to force yourself to do it anyway. At least once a month. Keep the fuel tank full and keep Stabil in it.
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

  10. #10
    President Member Jeff_H's Avatar
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    One thing I did yesterday before the rain interrupted me was fill some cans of "real" gas for use in the mowers, blowers, and chainsaws. I think it was $3.15. Anything that gets intermittent use where it could be setting for months I try avoid any E10 in.

    I found out a few years ago that E10 in the chainsaws was a no-go (literally). You could barely keep them running. Also experienced the swelling gas cap and it required a large pliers to screw it on/off. A couple summers ago the portable generator at the farm refused to start until I drained the year old E10 out of it and put fresh E0 in.

    That said, my truck that was wrecked in July 2018 and only this week is back on the road had a full tank of E10 in it that is 9mo old. Truck seems to run OK and started right up after sitting in the garage all winter.

    Jeff in ND

  11. #11
    Silver Hawk Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post

    Older fuel system soft components do not like E10. If you haven't replaced those old hoses, diaphragms, gaskets, accelerator pumps, etc., you are probably more likely to experience problems. A mandatory part of my check list when I get a "new" old car.

    I do drive my old cars quite a bit...and since I know I won't be driving them as regularly in the winter, I add Stabil. Cars of any age don't like to sit. Engines, transmissions, rear ends, brakes, tires, etc. want to be moving. Besides the fuel loosing volatility (it will happen with pure gas also...just maybe slower), water will be condensing in the tank, oil pan, brake system, etc. Brake pistons will be settling in and ultimately freezing in position. Tires will be flat spotting and rotting. If you are not keen on driving these old cars, it is probably good to force yourself to do it anyway. At least once a month. Keep the fuel tank full and keep Stabil in it.
    No disagreements. My old vehicles sleep in dehumidified and heated buildings, and I do use Stabil and ethanol neutralizer and prayer -- but even that doesn't always work when life intervenes and they have to sit for months without running. More to the point, why should I have to replace parts of my fuel system just to please the corn lobby?

  12. #12
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Lackie View Post
    More to the point, why should I have to replace parts of my fuel system just to please the corn lobby?
    I agree with that, but it's a slippery slope when we start discussing which lobbies we like and which lobbies we don't like.
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Steinkamp View Post
    I agree with that, but it's a slippery slope when we start discussing which lobbies we like and which lobbies we don't like.
    After 50+ years of working in DC, I haven't found many that I like.

  14. #14
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    Cheapest gas in Vancouver, British Columbia today is $1.599/litre or $7.259/Imperial gallon or $6.049/US gallon. Fifty kilometres east of me in Abbotsford BC, the Costco gas station is $1.41/litre - $6.44/Imperial gallon, $5.46/US gallon. The 18 cent difference per litre is mainly a transit tax, road tax and carbon tax.

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    As this item notes, the EPA has requested Congress to eliminate or reduce the requirements of the Renewal Fuels Mandate, which requires that a certain amount of ethanol-laced gas be produced, even if it's not needed. So far, Congress is not listening.

    https://www.semasan.com/legislative-...-e-15-gasoline

  16. #16
    Silver Hawk Member RadioRoy's Avatar
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    You guys who can still get "real" gas somewhere and also get any gas under $3 won't get any sympathy from me. We haven't had real gas for over 30 years and any gas we can get is rarely under $3 here in the San Francisco area.

    Plus, every time they come up with some new cockamamie formula that is supposed to be better, but actually/eventually proves to be MUCH worse or dangerous/poisonous is tried out here first.

    And I don't even have a basement for my train set.

    Boo hoo for me.
    RadioRoy, specializing in AM/FM conversions with auxiliary inputs for iPod/satellite/CD player. In the old car radio business since 1985.

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  17. #17
    President Member BobWaitz's Avatar
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    I'm really fortunate in that regard. I have a station 4 blocks from my house that has non-oxy 91 octane gas. It's in the $4 range but well worth it for my small engines and my Studebaker.

    Here's a handy website that is updated frequently. It contains a list of non-oxy gas state-by-state (and Canada!):

    https://www.pure-gas.org/

  18. #18
    Speedster Member aenthal's Avatar
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    I am one of the people who has problems with gasoline/alcohol mixtures in my classic vehicles. Who has it, and when, is more a function of the driving environment than the set up of the vehicle.
    Alcohol apparently evaporates at a lower temperature than gasoline. When I am tooling along in my carburetor classics and it is 82 degrees out, or 69 degrees, the cars do not know the difference between pure gas and alcho-gas mixtures. They just burn it. But I live in Southern California, where it can easily be over 100 degrees on a summer day (or night). At some point the fuel in the lines from the tank, to the carb, vaporizes, and the car vapor locks. They have supplemental electric fuel pumps, so that is not the solution.
    You have plenty of warning that it is happening. The car starts to buck, then there is the overpowering smell of alcohol. The car stalls out and you have to wait several hours for it to cool, and then it starts right up again with a demonic "what's wrong with you that you think I made problems?"
    I have gotten to the point that I am questioning if my cars can do 800 mile trips in the summers any more. They could if I lived in places were the mid 80's were typical. But in the far west, like Nevada, Arizona, and much of California, July and August trips are out.

  19. #19
    President Member TXmark's Avatar
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    when I lived in Houston 4ysrs back, you could not buy ethanol free gas, population density was the reason I was told.
    That was ironic since every thing in Houston is oil and gas related.

    I paid 2.39/gal yesterday here in NC
    Mark Riesch
    New Bern, NC

  20. #20
    Golden Hawk Member Dick Steinkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aenthal View Post
    I am one of the people who has problems with gasoline/alcohol mixtures in my classic vehicles. Who has it, and when, is more a function of the driving environment than the set up of the vehicle.
    Alcohol apparently evaporates at a lower temperature than gasoline. When I am tooling along in my carburetor classics and it is 82 degrees out, or 69 degrees, the cars do not know the difference between pure gas and alcho-gas mixtures. They just burn it. But I live in Southern California, where it can easily be over 100 degrees on a summer day (or night). At some point the fuel in the lines from the tank, to the carb, vaporizes, and the car vapor locks. They have supplemental electric fuel pumps, so that is not the solution.
    You have plenty of warning that it is happening. The car starts to buck, then there is the overpowering smell of alcohol. The car stalls out and you have to wait several hours for it to cool, and then it starts right up again with a demonic "what's wrong with you that you think I made problems?"
    I have gotten to the point that I am questioning if my cars can do 800 mile trips in the summers any more. They could if I lived in places were the mid 80's were typical. But in the far west, like Nevada, Arizona, and much of California, July and August trips are out.
    I've kind of beat this one to death, but...you would think everyone in California would be having fuel problems with collector cars since non E10 is not available there. Not so, however. I lived in Cali for many years. Ran E10 in my collector cars. Never a problem. My 54 Starliner with a 365 HP 327 and T10 did just fine (stock mechanical fuel pump). I have driven it to Phoenix for a Stude Zone meet in the summer. From LA to Vegas, across Utah and Colorado (11,000' pass) and on to Lincoln. Then back (quickly) across Nevada and home. In August. No problems.

    My feeling is that when you assign drivability problems to the fuel, you will never find the real reason(s).
    Dick Steinkamp
    Bellingham, WA

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