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Borg Warner DG 200 Transmission Issues.

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  • Transmission / Overdrive: Borg Warner DG 200 Transmission Issues.

    It would do this on cold start ups. No it is not over filled. It was right at the fill mark before I parked it the night before. You check these in idle with the transmission in drive, and that is just what I did before shutting it down. So the fluid is right where it needs to be.

    I have a feeling that the torque converter could be the problem but I am not sure. I notice when it lock in on direct drive, it would make a "clunk" sound and stay in direct drive until I slow down. Sometimes it would make a soft "clunk" sound and it would slip out of direct drive when you lightly depress the gas pedal so to go a little faster, and it would sound like as if it's in neutral. Then I would let off the very little gas I gave it. Then it would make a soft "clunk" sound again. And yes, I'm using type F fluid.

    I made a video of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5TxFDwHdaw
    sigpic
    51 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

  • #2
    I don't think that Type F is the correct fluid in DG transmissions.

    OTOH, Flight-O-Matics offer the choice of regular ATF or Type F depending on you choice of a smooth vs. a firm shift.

    I've seen some pretty unnerving results of Type F usage in transmission no designed for such..

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by GrumpyOne View Post
      I don't think that Type F is the correct fluid in DG transmissions.

      OTOH, Flight-O-Matics offer the choice of regular ATF or Type F depending on you choice of a smooth vs. a firm shift.

      I've seen some pretty unnerving results of Type F usage in transmission no designed for such..
      Well, First I tried Dexron III. That didn't work out. One member on here said that he used type F in his for the last 30 or 40 years. So I drained both the transmission and torque converter and filled it with type F. Worked find for a little while then started slipping again and now it pushes it's own fluid out on cold starts.

      They don't carry the type of fluid these transmissions requires anymore. I think it was 0w20 oil or something like that.
      sigpic
      51 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

      Comment


      • #4
        more info

        http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...smission-Fluid
        Milt

        1947 Champion (owned since 1967)
        1961 Hawk 4-speed
        1967 Avanti
        1961 Lark 2 door
        1988 Avanti Convertible

        Member of SDC since 1973

        Comment


        • #5
          The first thing I would do is drop the pan, see what the filter looks like and analyze what's in the pan. Jerry Kurtz

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by EmersonCollie View Post
            They don't carry the type of fluid these transmissions requires anymore. I think it was 0w20 oil or something like that.
            The original recommendation was a good quality 10 weight motor oil. Modern transmission fluids are superior in every way. The issue can't conceivably be the type of fluid and, as Jerry recommends, first drop the pan and examine the filter. It's a very fine brass screen and, if not damaged, can be cleaned and reused. They are getting very hard to find.
            "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

            Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
            Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
            '33 Rockne 10,
            '51 Commander Starlight,
            '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée",
            '56 Sky Hawk

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm not a DG transmission expert. Your video shows fluid pushing out the filler. Question, do you just refill it and watch it do the same thing, or let it bleed off and stay the level it appears to want? Does it run "OK" at the lower level? As to the clunks of the torque converter lock up-unlock problem, this appears to have been a problem through out this transmission's life and use, not only in Studebakers, but Hudsons, Jaguars, and others. I think they were trying to do too much based on a governor directing fluid at precise adjusted points, and getting them all exactly correct was problematic, but when accomplished resulted in an excellent automatic. It appears finding an expert to help you is also a problem, might check with some other clubs on makes that used them also, they might have a somewhat "local" expert to help you out.

              Comment


              • #8
                Is there a vent tube on the DG200? I remember I had an issue on an older trans, (can't remember which), but tried several fixes to no avail. Finally found that a mud wasp had built a nest on the vent tube. Cleaned that up and it went to normal operation. Just thinkin.
                sals54

                Comment


                • #9
                  some supplemental info..
                  I ran a 55 President with a DG250M for almost 9 (18-20K miles) years on Dexron-Mercon III. Never an issue. The clunk sound you heard was the hydraulic mechanism in the clutch lock up circuit engaging (3rd gear). Normal to me, although it was a subdued "clunk" in my case. While in drive, if you move the throttle abruptly, even slightly, then it will downshift (Direct to 2nd) and this is dependent on the demands of the engine at the time (vacuum) But...I'd like to emphasize that 3rd gear in a DG250 is not really a gearing, but the lockup mechanism engaging and cancelling any torque converter action. There is really no 3rd gear, per se..

                  As far as the overflow, I'd defer to the comments regarding the filter...
                  If the fluid was at the optimum during startup, then the level would rise in the transmission pan (body) when the car was shut off. Once started again, the front pump would pull in the required amount of fluid to circulate through and fill the system, then start dumping circulatory fluid back into the pan. If more comes back into the pan than it can sustain, then fluid is being drawn from the system ( converter?) and back to the pan but nothing is exiting the pan (being drawn) into the system. The pan overflows.... Usually the converter holds a lot of fluid that does not drain down ( unless the seals are worn)... Check the filter. It is bronze and can be cleaned and reused... You will have to ( should) get a new pan gasket...... Just my $.02
                  64 GT Hawk (K7)
                  1970 Avanti (R3)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 64V-K7 View Post
                    some supplemental info..
                    I ran a 55 President with a DG250M for almost 9 (18-20K miles) years on Dexron-Mercon III. Never an issue. The clunk sound you heard was the hydraulic mechanism in the clutch lock up circuit engaging (3rd gear). Normal to me, although it was a subdued "clunk" in my case. While in drive, if you move the throttle abruptly, even slightly, then it will downshift (Direct to 2nd) and this is dependent on the demands of the engine at the time (vacuum) But...I'd like to emphasize that 3rd gear in a DG250 is not really a gearing, but the lockup mechanism engaging and cancelling any torque converter action. There is really no 3rd gear, per se..

                    As far as the overflow, I'd defer to the comments regarding the filter...
                    If the fluid was at the optimum during startup, then the level would rise in the transmission pan (body) when the car was shut off. Once started again, the front pump would pull in the required amount of fluid to circulate through and fill the system, then start dumping circulatory fluid back into the pan. If more comes back into the pan than it can sustain, then fluid is being drawn from the system ( converter?) and back to the pan but nothing is exiting the pan (being drawn) into the system. The pan overflows.... Usually the converter holds a lot of fluid that does not drain down ( unless the seals are worn)... Check the filter. It is bronze and can be cleaned and reused... You will have to ( should) get a new pan gasket...... Just my $.02
                    I believe there are three forward 'gears' in a DG-250M,...with a final converter hydraulic 'lockup' feature.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I wonder if the perceived "clunk" might just be the normal shift of these 200's. I know we have become accustomed to smooth almost unnoticeable shifts in modern automatics, while these first generation transmissions demonstrated some very solid shifts. I've experienced some shifts with my DG200 that jerk me in the seat and chirp the tires; normal in my experience.
                      "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

                      Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
                      Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
                      '33 Rockne 10,
                      '51 Commander Starlight,
                      '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée",
                      '56 Sky Hawk

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SN-60 View Post
                        I believe there are three forward 'gears' in a DG-250M,...with a final converter hydraulic 'lockup' feature.
                        Nope... If you look at the schematic, there's a Low and a Forward band. Low IS used on the DG250M, but on the other transmissions, is NOT used unless you pull the gearshift to engage it. You start off in drive (Forward) using the #2 band, ring gear and torque converter. Once above the governor determined speed, the hydraulics engage the clutch and cancel out the band application. You're in direct drive. 3rd gear is simply NO torque converter.. There are situations where the DG's will not shift into "Third" but the problem is related to the leaking seals and the pressure can't rise enough to make the hydraulics work..
                        64 GT Hawk (K7)
                        1970 Avanti (R3)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          [QUOTE=64V-K7;971182]some supplemental info..
                          I ran a 55 President with a DG250M for almost 9 (18-20K miles) years on Dexron-Mercon III. Never an issue. The clunk sound you heard was the hydraulic mechanism in the clutch lock up circuit engaging (3rd gear). Normal to me, although it was a subdued "clunk" in my case. While in drive, if you move the throttle abruptly, even slightly, then it will downshift (Direct to 2nd) and this is dependent on the demands of the engine at the time (vacuum) But...I'd like to emphasize that 3rd gear in a DG250 is not really a gearing, but the lockup mechanism engaging and cancelling any torque converter action. There is really no 3rd gear, per se..

                          I've since added 30,000 miles to that car and transmission using Dexron-Mercon III with absolutely no problems. It would be best to get the pan gaskets from a Studebaker vendor, they will have the correct ones in stock. Napa tried selling a later model gasket set and finally admitted they couldn't get the correct set. Be very careful with the existing filter, I couldn't find a new one. Although there have been mention on this site of suppliers who have extensive parts available, try a search.
                          South Lompoc Studebaker

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What you describe is that the converter clutch is not holding. It may be a problem inside converter seals for clutch clutch, bad clutch material, worn bushings in the stator support. Lou Cote

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 64V-K7 View Post
                              Nope... If you look at the schematic, there's a Low and a Forward band. Low IS used on the DG250M, but on the other transmissions, is NOT used unless you pull the gearshift to engage it. You start off in drive (Forward) using the #2 band, ring gear and torque converter. Once above the governor determined speed, the hydraulics engage the clutch and cancel out the band application. You're in direct drive. 3rd gear is simply NO torque converter.. There are situations where the DG's will not shift into "Third" but the problem is related to the leaking seals and the pressure can't rise enough to make the hydraulics work..
                              I stand corrected!....Thanks for the clear explanation!

                              Comment

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