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installing new crank gear (289 V8); without benefit of HM861 installer tool?

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  • Engine: installing new crank gear (289 V8); without benefit of HM861 installer tool?

    Hi, I purchased an aluminum cam gear, and associated new crank gear. My original crank gear got RE-installed by the machinist (never thought to ask him to leave it off...) but I should be able to get that off with a gear puller, not planning to reuse it....

    But I want to make sure I install the new gear properly and completely seated!!!!
    By the way, I've not seen a gear " black-coated", not sure if heat-treatment or a coating? Is that anything special ? Will heating the crank gear to 350F in oven like I've seen recommended here have any negative effect on that coating, if it IS a coating? Probably not considering engine temps, but... I'm used to bare steel gears). My camshaft was completely redone by a camshaft, and THAT is black and supposedly "coated', thus wondering, otherwise probably wouldn't have given it a thought.

    My installation plan was just like ring gears on a Model-A, heat up the new crank gear to 350F or so, run it out to the shop and drop it on. Then if it still doesn't go all the say, any reason I can't gently tap it on, with a pipe or other "uniform" tool, until it is firmly seated all the way?
    (with the crank vertical on the bench, supported on a wood block.....?)

    Appreciate advice; searched and read many a post but besides the heating to 350F, didn't find any posts about installing this gear (except with the nice but not in my shop Stude tool).

    I also wonder, if my original crank gear is "ok" (not perfect, but running against a fiber gear all these years, not a lot to wear...) if there is any reason to simply leave it in place and use the new one for a paperweight at work? Just seems right to pair a new ALUMINUM cam gear with a new crank gear, ..... but also seems there would have been more posts and questions on the Forum if it typically is replaced. Maybe I'm overthinking it and you just (gently) whack it on, like a lot of other gears there are no special tools FOR......

    Thanks guys!
    Barry

  • #2
    I believe you are right, the New Replacement Crank Gears do need to be heated for some unknown reason, the Originals did not. 350' to 400' will not hurt it.

    The biggest issue here is that you do NOT want to final install that New Gear before finding and setting the New Crankshaft end play using the existing Shims and more or less for proper clearance per the Manual, but do not use their Method.

    The very BEST way to do that, is not to keep pulling and shoving the gear on and off until it is right.

    Just use a short Length of Exhaust Pipe or other suitable Pipe and washers and a Long Power Steering Crank Screw to simulate the Gear being in place with the Crank and Main Bearings in the Block.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner

    Comment


    • #3
      Two things -

      1. Yes, heat the gear for about 1 hour. Then RUSH it out to the crank.

      2. Make a cheap installation tool to help. Get a short length of "all thread" and screw it into the crank snout. Get a nut of the same thread. Get a heavy, large diameter washer, or make one, doesn't have to be pretty..! A short length of the aforementioned exhaust pipe, just larger than the crank snout.
      Drop the gear in place (after as noted, the shims are selected), drop the pipe and washer in place, use the nut to crank down on the gear.

      3. A little oil also goes a long way in this task.

      Me...I'd never use a hammer..!

      Mike

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks guys; great point about using it "as-is" now to confirm the proper clearance. It will be interesting to see if the crank rebuilder checked this or not (original but after machining undersize I suppose it could change, you'd think he'd check it before reinstalling the crank gear, if they intended it was 'all ready to go' for installation... Will be interesting to see, that is my next 'step' here over break. (at least at 15F today, the crank will be nice and cold vs the hot, enlarged crank GEAR, eh? ;-) The benefits of living in Minnesota.

        Appreciate the good tips and confirmation.
        Happy New Year to you both!
        Barry

        Comment


        • #5
          Click image for larger version

Name:	Crankshaft EndPlay with new crank gear Dec31 2015.jpg
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          Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten View Post
          Two things -
          1. Yes, heat the gear for about 1 hour. Then RUSH it out to the crank.
          2. Make a cheap installation tool to help. Get a short length of "all thread" and screw it into the crank snout. Get a nut of the same thread. Get a heavy, large diameter washer, or make one, doesn't have to be pretty..! A short length of the aforementioned exhaust pipe, just larger than the crank snout.
          Drop the gear in place (after as noted, the shims are selected), drop the pipe and washer in place, use the nut to crank down on the gear.
          3. A little oil also goes a long way in this task.
          Mike
          ---------------
          Wow, finally got it in, not sure the heating did anything, gear was ice cold after I got it on snout and set up the bolt and 'pusher' pieces (old gears and bearing spacers, etc.).

          Finally got it on and again the proper .006 end play; only mistake; I assumed it would go on easier (heated and all) and just used my crank bolt to put it on instead of going out and trying to find that big fine-thread bolt at local stores still open. It went, but my original crank bolt threads are slightly distorted. Still screws in and out by hand, thankfully; must have been a TON of force on that (and I was sweating when I got it pressed on, believe me!). Should have waited and got a DIFFERENT threaded rod or bolt like you suggested, instead of using my crank bolt. Hopefully she'll be OK, just 'bent back' the threads a bit, not triangular pitch anymore except final two or three that never made it into the snout. :-(
          And good luck finding a new one (Supercharger version, Golden Hawk...) so I am very lucky I didn't break it or strip it!!!! Based on the torque I was using to force the crank gear on, it should take the torque for final assembly!! (and might thread-lock it with Loctite just to be safe)....

          Thanks for the advice; next time will follow ALL of it.
          Last edited by bsrosell; 01-01-2016, 10:58 AM.

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          • #6
            Are you saying you just used the Old shims from the Old Crank Gear and pushed the New Crank Gear on without checking the end play first with a short length of Pipe, and you lucked out and got .006 end play anyway?

            Wow talk about a Gamble, that's a lot of wear and tear on the parts and work/time to do that several times, if you miss getting the Shim Pack correct with New Main Bearings and Crank Gear, also guessing that the thickness of the Shims is correct, you REALLY got Lucky!
            StudeRich
            Second Generation Stude Driver,
            Proud '54 Starliner Owner

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
              Are you saying you just used the Old shims from the Old Crank Gear and pushed the New Crank Gear on without checking the end play first with a short length of Pipe, and you lucked out and got .006 end play anyway?

              Wow talk about a Gamble, that's a lot of wear and tear on the parts and work/time to do that several times, if you miss getting the Shim Pack correct with New Main Bearings and Crank Gear, also guessing that the thickness of the Shims is correct, you REALLY got Lucky!
              Shoot, you are right! I recalled the advice for checking with the old original crankgear (I figured out he never removed it, must be able to grind them with it on?) . I was thinking about the "pipe check" at that point..... but gear was so tight no pipe I could push on there would change the clearance (my thinking), it was what it was, and was about .005+/- .001 before I removed it. Never registered you meant using pipe to check AFTER the gear was removed. The cold weather is dulling my brain too apparently.

              Anyway, after gear was off I could SEE about three shims, rinsed and cleaned everything off good in case any grit fell in from breaking the layers apart, and put it back together with the new crank gear. Lucky? In that nothing changed between the old and new bearing width, darn tooting....! Cranked on that gear until I couldn't budge it anymore and wear plate was completely tight up against it again, and was awfully glad to see .006 max on my indicator again. It would have been time to find someone who would be willing to loan and ship a removal and installation tool, if not. I'm NOT going through that again!

              I should have PRINTED this page out, I remembered everything but that 'pre-check' without the gear (and ignored going and buying a different bolt instead of using my crank bolt ;-( thought with pre-heat it would go on reasonably well.... Other that THAT, I did great! Ha.
              Bearing must have been exactly the same, or made up the difference somewhere else. I'll take it either way! If I had known it was going to be that difficult to put on, I would have left the old one as it was against a fiber gear and really looked pretty darn good, though not perfect. Well, it's done now, thank goodness.
              Last edited by bsrosell; 01-02-2016, 05:49 AM.

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              • #8
                Needing both tools to remove an install cam shaft ..reusing both the cam an cam gear..thank you Raymond..
                rawise

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wise raymond View Post
                  Needing both tools to remove an install cam shaft ..reusing both the cam an cam gear..thank you Raymond..
                  Do you mean you wanna remove the cam gear? If so, the Shop Manual shows how. It's been awhile but, if memory serves, have never needed special tools for that, other than a simple puller. I use a long bolt and stacked flat washers to walk it back on, same as the crankshaft gear.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Phil Harris sells a crank gear pusher tool set that includes a ball-type thrust bearing that will allow the puller screw to turn freely under heavy load. The price is very reasonable. I doubt you will ever find redi rod in that thread size. I think it's 11/16-20, but I may be wrong. Using a crank bolt turning in the crankshaft snout as the "pusher" runs a great risk of damaging the threads in the crank or on the bolt, or both. If you have to roll your own, weld a piece of 5/8 or 3/4 redi rod to the shank of a spare crank bolt, run that all the way into the crank snout, and then use a nut, stack of washers, and a kingpin thrust bearing for your puller stack.
                    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

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                    • #11
                      Sorry it is a cam shaft I need to pull ..an install...an the manual book I have is an old Motor repair manual. Not a Studebaker.. manual . Thank you for your answers..
                      rawise

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wise raymond View Post
                        Sorry it is a cam shaft I need to pull ..an install...an the manual book I have is an old Motor repair manual. Not a Studebaker.. manual . Thank you for your answers..
                        Just for clarification, is this a Champion 6-cyl or a V8?

                        Removing the V8 camshaft from the block does not require any special tool.

                        Removing the cam drive gear from the camshaft nose can be next-to-impossible. We've seen some OEM cam gears so tight on the cam, the fiber gear was completely destroyed in the attempt to use a threaded puller, even when the puller bolts were threaded through the gear and washers and nuts helping behind. Finally, those that tight required a shop hydraulic press to remove.

                        jack vines
                        PackardV8

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                        • #13
                          Right..thank. You.. it is ..a V8. I was hoping just to get the cam out..to inspect it..an if it needed to be replaced it I was going to get it reground to an r2 or r3 speck .right now just 289. Thank you gentlemen.
                          rawise

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gordr View Post
                            Phil Harris sells a crank gear pusher tool set that includes a ball-type thrust bearing that will allow the puller screw to turn freely under heavy load. The price is very reasonable. I doubt you will ever find redi rod in that thread size. I think it's 11/16-20, but I may be wrong. Using a crank bolt turning in the crankshaft snout as the "pusher" runs a great risk of damaging the threads in the crank or on the bolt, or both. If you have to roll your own, weld a piece of 5/8 or 3/4 redi rod to the shank of a spare crank bolt, run that all the way into the crank snout, and then use a nut, stack of washers, and a kingpin thrust bearing for your puller stack.
                            No problem if a person understands the mechanics of the operation, i.e. make sure plenty of threads are engaged as, "push" PSI increases. Long ago, I had ready access to machinists talents, and had several special tools made, and still have them. Each time I wind up re-climbing a learning curve, in dragging the stuff out. Maybe I should take some pix of some of those items, but none of it is rocket science. As I have said many times here, working on Studes is kinda like working on farm implements of the same era.

                            Since a pic is worth 1000 words, I attached a couple. The short one is for 352, and the longer (modified) one is for 259/289: Click image for larger version

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                            Last edited by JoeHall; 03-29-2020, 09:13 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PackardV8 View Post

                              Just for clarification, is this a Champion 6-cyl or a V8?

                              Removing the V8 camshaft from the block does not require any special tool.

                              Removing the cam drive gear from the camshaft nose can be next-to-impossible. We've seen some OEM cam gears so tight on the cam, the fiber gear was completely destroyed in the attempt to use a threaded puller, even when the puller bolts were threaded through the gear and washers and nuts helping behind. Finally, those that tight required a shop hydraulic press to remove.

                              jack vines
                              I would not wanna re-use such a cam gear anyway. LOL

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