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Recommendations for a 6V electric fuel pump

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  • LeoH
    replied
    Thanks for the input Nathan. I'll see what happens after we try jumping the coil to the battery. It's going to be a few days as I get to the rural location in a '60 Lark wagon and we just got around 8" of snow last night.
    Considering that, even after I get it running, I still haven't gotten to the brakes, wheels and bearings, it isn't like once I get it running I'm going anywhere.

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  • nvonada
    replied
    Leo,
    OK, well like everything else on old cars the answer to your fuse block question is "It depends". Generally you want your fuses as close to the battery as possible. Any leads to the fuse block from the battery are not protected and a possible place for a short. But protection from the weather is important too. Modern cars tend to have two fuse panels for just that reason. One in a sealed box right next to the battery and another inside under the dash somewhere.

    I have never worked on a Stude truck but there should be a fairly hefty wire coming into the cab though the firewall grommet. That will go to one side of your ammeter. A wire from the other size of the ammeter will go to your fuse block which should be bolted to the back of the dash somewhere to the right of the steering column. That fuse block has only 3 or 4 fuses and is fairly pathetic. But if you tie your new fuse block in to the same place (back of the ammeter) you can mount the block on the back of the dash and it will be both protected and your ammeter will read correctly.

    If it were me I would want to get the truck running in some fashion before I started renovations. It might be sucking gas out of a coffee can and have every wire bypassed but then I would at least have some idea where the engine stands. It also is very encouraging to see the beast come to life. First rule when you are in a hole is to stop digging. The second is figure out how deep you already are.

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  • LeoH
    replied
    No offense taken Nathan I appreciate the impending workload warning, I know I'm in the deep end, but I have some water wings with me and I'm just dog paddling along.

    As for the fuse block, do I just go to a FLAPS and ask for a fuse block? That's not been part of any information that's passed along to me, or any suggestion that, if you have X car, a Y amount slot fuse block will do you with basic needs or figure on 2 or 3 additional openings for future needs. Or Such and Such's fuse block works well. Nuttin'. I don't know, I don't think that's too much 'hand holding' to ask for, maybe it is but that's what I'd like to know.

    Also, for those who have done this, it'd be helpful if they'd pipe up with, 'I added one to my car/truck and stuck it HERE and it works well' or 'I stuck mine THERE and I wouldn't put it there again'.

    Lastly, this is a typically used until it didn't work 2T truck found non-operable out in a farmyard. A new wiring harness has always been on the table for me to get and keep it running reliably without worrying about crispy crunchy wire wrapping as I putt along. I'm working on it outside and I hear you about doing a jumping wire to the battery from that side of the coil. We discussed that, and it probably is a smart experiment to just do to rule out any issues with the coil/points/distributor. When we found that there wasn't juice to that end of the ignition wire, at least, it was late in the afternoon, we were cold and I just thought 'if I planned to install a new harness, now's as good a time as any'.

    The plugs are new, the points, rotor and contacts looked good enough to have produced some result, if juice had gotten to them we saw and evaluated.

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  • nvonada
    replied
    Leo,
    First the fuse block. The fuse block really is that simple. You run battery power (negative in your case) to one side of the fuse then connect the circuit you wish to protect to the other side. Any short or overload on the protected circuit will then blow the fuse and disconnect the battery. This picture shows a typical fuse block. Big cable connects the battery to a buss bar that feeds all the fuses. Smaller wires are going out to the protected circuits.
    Click image for larger version

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    Did you check for spark? Before you start gutting your wiring realize that almost always when a car will not fire it is plugs, points, or ignition wires. If you suspect the wiring harness a jumper wire directly from the battery to the coil will rule that out. A cheap multimeter is a huge help in troubleshooting wiring. I don't want to be too blunt but if you don't know how to wire a fuse a new harness will be a very rough road. That is a big job and odds are that is not what is keeping you from running.

    Nathan

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  • LeoH
    replied
    So, progress, but since I don't have a radiator until later this week or next (fingers crossed), I just did operations testing basically.
    The pump switch for now is wired to the battery directly, with an inline fuse. One detour today was hooking things up and no sound from the pump. Hm. Talking with the friend who's shop I'm at, we were down to thinking the switch was bad or one of my connections in the wiring was not adequate when it dawned on him, "Positive ground, which wire did you ground?" Of course, the black ground wire, so back I went, switched wires, flipped the switch and whirring commenced. I installed the switch in the starter button hole on the dash next to the choke lever.
    I did prime the pump as best as I could with a funnel before firing up. I also ran the engine without plugs in to oil up the block as this is a six and the oil pump is not run off the bottom of the distributor.
    It does turn over, sounds like it has compression and gas is squirting in the carb, so we checked the coil and distributor. The ignition and distributor wire to the coil were both crispy and cracked, so I had replaced them before trying to start the engine, but I had to tear the harness apart a few inches in order to free up enough ignition wire to connect to in good shape.
    The rotor and points looked newer, good enough they should have done some firing. We checked the ignition wire and didn't seem to get any juice to the splice, so likely there's another part of the ignition wire that's toast.
    I think I'm just going to quit while I'm behind and get a new harness. It's not that much money and will be time saved in chasing down subsequent shorts were I ever TO get the engine firing off the old wiring.
    The starter switch worked, the starter turned over, the pump pumps, so those are positive steps in the resurrection.
    I did remove the 3 nuts on the back of the dash and the 2 screws holding the speedo/instrument panel in, but I'll be darned if I could figure out how to get the dash panel they rest in loose. I'd have done more fidgeting with the ignition switch if I had better access to it, other than removing the climatizer box.

    Also, if anyone's used a particular website to follow how to add a fuse block, I might give that a try when installing the wiring harness while I was at it. So far, the only suggestions I've received from people who have done it was, 'you get a fuse block, put it in and run your wires out of it.' Not detailed enough help for me.
    I do plan to get the 6V alternator and I'd like to add a pair of driving lights at least, so having a fuse block would make things safer and easier.

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  • RadioRoy
    replied
    Originally posted by LeoH View Post
    I have a pump on order, but I'm definitely weak in the electrical accessory add on skills, particularly important accessories. I have fair to decent wiring in the instrument panel and I'm going to have to fabricate some sort of mount on or around the Hill Holder for the pump, but when it comes to wiring it in the dash, other than knowing the power lead needs to go to the hot side of the ignition post and that the ground should go to the frame somewhere, that's it. If the pump doesn't come with a separate fuse, could someone tell me which size inline fuse I need to insert? Also if there's any other wiring tips I need to know, it would be appreciated.
    Hook the pump to the accessory terminal on the ignition switch. That way, you can run the pump to prime the carburetor before starting the engine. The ignition key should never be left in the "on" position unless the engine is running or being started.

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  • gordr
    replied
    Yep, you can get away with over-volting DC motors. Under-volting, not so much, particularly under load. When do you burn out a starter? Not when it has plenty of juice and spin like crazy, but when the battery is low and it barely turns, or not at all. Keep current flowing into a stalled motor, and it will burn out. I would hesitate to run a 12 volt windshield wiper motor on six volts.

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  • Mike Van Veghten
    replied
    gord -

    Understand.
    But we are talking small DC motors. Small being up to and including automotive engine starter motors. I've seen 6 volt starters run a full (drag race) season powered by 24 volts.

    MANY years...ago, I had a small 8 volt motor in a drag race slot car. I was at a big national road race event, but wasn't racing. Though I did bring one car that everyone liked to watch on the drag strip. It was 25 cents per run, and I was collecting money by the hand fulls.
    Well the "rich" kid (always one in the crowd) wanted me to up the voltage from 12 volts (as I recall, the power was rated at 200 amps). We went to 18 then to 24. The car made a lot of 24 volt runs without any visual problem. Then the rich kid came back and wanted to see it at 32 volts. I said no. He said ok, run it at 36 volts (the max.) and I'll pay for a new motor if it blows up. I knew he was good for it...so I cranked the power to 36 volts.
    The car left sideways like a rocket. The car got to about three feet from the starting line, a blue flame shot out from under the car and it came to a skidding halt..! The damage was such that it wasn't feasible to try to fix that motor. "Bill" bought me a new motor right then and there.
    The little 32 Ford coupe was a bigger hit than ever..!

    Mike

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  • LeoH
    replied
    I have a pump on order, but I'm definitely weak in the electrical accessory add on skills, particularly important accessories. I have fair to decent wiring in the instrument panel and I'm going to have to fabricate some sort of mount on or around the Hill Holder for the pump, but when it comes to wiring it in the dash, other than knowing the power lead needs to go to the hot side of the ignition post and that the ground should go to the frame somewhere, that's it. If the pump doesn't come with a separate fuse, could someone tell me which size inline fuse I need to insert? Also if there's any other wiring tips I need to know, it would be appreciated.

    Leave a comment:


  • gordr
    replied
    Mike, motors tend to regulate themselves due to "back EMF". As they run, they also generate a voltage that opposes the applied voltage. These little DC motors, lightly loaded are pretty tolerant of under/over voltage. Not so bigger AC motors. Undervoltage causes reduced back EMF, which means they pull more current, while delivering less power. You can easily kill appliance motors with chronic undervoltage.

    And any electric motor that stalls, while still being fed with power, will burn out right quick. Starters being a good example.

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  • LeoH
    replied
    Originally posted by nvonada View Post
    What problem are you trying to solve with the electric pump?
    Not buying a rebuild kit, disassemble the existing fuel pump rebuild it and not have it work anyway. I'm leaving the pump in place to run as a vacuum pump for the wipers.

    I don't have an electric pump on my daily driver Lark wagon and I notice the difference when I let it sit a day; on an older 6V truck, not garaged, in winter but wanting to be able to drive it without excess troubles after it sits for a few days, the $40 or so for an electric pump that bypasses the pump is what I want to do for now. If the truck turns out to run fine and be dependable, I'll consider getting a rebuild kit later and leave the electric pump in as an assist to the mechanical pump. My goal now is to just see if the truck runs and get it to a point where it runs reliably, I think the electric pump is a cost effective decision for now.

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  • nvonada
    replied
    What problem are you trying to solve with the electric pump?

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  • Mike Van Veghten
    replied
    An experiment.
    It worked.

    Since a motor basically works off of the amperage (not so much volts) available to it. Even though a 6 volt system provides more amps than a 12 volt system, it's "available", not "forced" into the motor. The motor will only draw what it needs, amperage wise. The additional amperage just sits in the battery until something else needs it.
    And...having a lot of experience with small DC motors, and realizing that putting fewer volts into a motor does not hurt it in any way... I just put those two facts together, and plugged in my 12 volt pump into a 6 volt battery.

    Actually, one thing did surprise me. The fact that the pump put out the "advertised" 12 volt pressure...at 6 volts..!

    For the record, small "jumps" in voltage will not normally hurt either. Putting 12 volts to a quality 6 volt motor will just spin it faster. But 18 volts won't last so long.
    I ran a pair of OLD...6 volt horns in a 12 volt system. Lasted for (as I recall!) 4 or 5 years before finally failing.

    Mike

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  • LeoH
    replied
    Interesting Mike, what caused you to decide to do that?

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  • Mike Van Veghten
    replied
    Carter P4389.
    It's a 12 volt pump, but mines been working on 6 volts for for over 2000 miles without problem.
    Just swapped the pos., for the neg. posts for the positive ground.

    Mike

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