Project A: R&R 289 Rear Oil Seal

[63Avanti]

Moving forward in the undercarriage.
The previous two owners both talked about the
rear seal leaking. Yep, I agree....

Question:
I was under my Avanti R2, looked at the rear
of the engine, but it is not clear that I can R&R in situ.
Do I have to loosen/lift something? Please, not the whole engine!

thanks!

Terry,
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065 http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202 (Diesel)
2000 VW Jetta GLS

[JDP]

You need to drop part of the steering lenkage and the oil pan for starters. Don't even think of doing it without the shop manual.


Studebaker On The Net
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Arnold Md.
64 Daytona HT
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 GT Hawk
63 Avanti R1/AC
63 Avanti R2/4 speed
63 Daytona HT
63 Lark 2 dr.
62 Lark 2 door
60 Lark convert
60 Hawk
57 Silver Hawk
53 Starliner
51 Commander

[63Avanti]

Hmmmm,
been under the engine a couple of times.
Understand the linkage thing, I hope, and oil pan.

However, it is not clear how to
1) get the rear oil seal off with the clearances available
2) get the gaskets in place and held with the clearances available.

Anyone have some dirty-fingernail expertise on this?

thanks!

Terry,
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065 http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202 (Diesel)
2000 VW Jetta GLS

[StudeRich]

Terry, you remove the steering bellcrank from the center pivot shaft and drop the whole tie rod assy.(OPPS) you've got an Avanti, those almost allways have PS, the ram makes that hard, just remove the tierods from the bellcrank arm then. Then remove the oilpan, then be sure you have a good torque wrench first(to re-Tighten) and loosen all the main bearing caps, remove the rear one, then fish-out the upper half of the rear main seal with a curved wooden stick or something that will not damage the crank. You have to carefully install the small corks in the block surface that go UNDER the pan side gasket tabs, useing high temp Permatex Silicone (red or black) to coat all the pieces, lightly silicone the backside of the mainseal to the block and main cap and the little "side rods" on the lower half. I snug up all the main bearing bolts, let cure overnight and then torque to 85-95 FT.LBS. The pan gasket can be installed easier using a piece of 5/16" X US coarse thread all-thread rod, cut into one inch pieces in all or every other pan bolt hole to temp. locate and "glue" with a LIGHT coat of silicone to the block and pan. but BEFORE THAT you need to buy a timing cover gasket to cut the bottom part off to re-install between the filler block and the lower part of the timing cover to do this correctly. As you have been told before and refuse to do: ITS IN THE MANUAL. Are you beginining to see why no one wants to tell you this, or do this job with the engine in? (4 days NO ans.)I am tired typing... maybe this will get you started... OR NOT!

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

[63Avanti]

quote:Originally posted by StudeRich
As you have been told before and refuse to do: ITS IN THE MANUAL. Are you beginining to see why no one wants to tell you this, or do this job with the engine in? I am tired typing... maybe this will get you started... OR NOT!
StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

First, thank you for your reply.
In addition to the Avanti Service Manual, Parts Manual, I also have the Gundry and the Lampman books. All are heavily dog eared, and marked up. I find them a great source of questions for the experts. I see that you added stuff not seen in any manual, some examples.

quote:Terry, you remove the steering bellcrank from the center pivot shaft and drop the whole tie rod assy.(OPPS) you've got an Avanti, those almost allways have PS, the ram makes that hard, just remove the tierods from the bellcrank arm then.

hmmm, that was not in the manual

quote: Then remove the oilpan, then be sure you have a good torque wrench first(to re-Tighten)

another item not in the book

quote:and loosen all the main bearing caps, remove the rear one, then fish-out the upper half of the rear main seal with a curved wooden stick or something that will not damage the crank.

good technique, but not in the book

quote:You have to carefully install the small corks in the block surface that go UNDER the pan side gasket tabs, useing high temp Permatex Silicone (red or black) to coat all the pieces, lightly silicone the backside of the mainseal to the block and main cap and the little "side rods" on the lower half. I snug up all the main bearing bolts, let cure overnight

good technique, but not in the book

quote: and then torque to 85-95 FT.LBS. The pan gasket can be installed easier using a piece of 5/16" X US coarse thread all-thread rod, cut into one inch pieces in all or every other pan bolt hole to temp. locate and "glue" with a LIGHT coat of silicone to the block and pan. but BEFORE THAT you need to buy a timing cover gasket to cut the bottom part off to re-install between the filler block and the lower part of the timing cover to do this correctly.

and...I think you see where I am very glad that I asked the question.

<center>
Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
2000 VW Jetta GLS
1999 Toyota rice burner
</center>

[StudeRich]

Yes Terry you are right, maybe at lot of it is experience over the last 43 years, but someone will just say that they do it differently[V]
so why get myself bashed[?] Some people make worse mistakes than I do and don't... so I am getting tired of the whole thing. I thought a lot about answering this, but I guess I am a glutten for punishment, and I really DO want to help, cause I did it anyway![}]

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

[John Kirchhoff]

Terry made a very valid point concerning shop manuals, some are extremely vauge. Fortunately for us Stude people, the Studebaker shop manuals have to be the most complete and detailed I've ever used and believe me, that's been a bunch. Let's see, right now they take up about three feet on the shelf..... One time I had an axle bearing go out on a large tractor and the shop manual said simply "remove axle housing". What it didn't say was that a 1,400 pound wheel and tire had to come off, as well as the fender, seat, 300 pound hydraulic unit, hydraulic outlets, lift arms, wiring, floor board, shift lever...get the point I'm making? Terry, I'm sure no genius by any stretch of the imagination, but as far as I'm concerned, keep on asking questions. I've worked on just about everything you can ever think of and I still ask questions!

[63Avanti]

Not to make too much of the topic of the less-than-clear manual , but I always have had all the manuals published for every vehicle/engine I have owned. Each has a slightly different view, taken together result in insight. For the most part, I use them to understand what I am having the mechanic do. In the case of the Avanti, I am much more hands on then even back in the '60s...part of the fun of having a repairable car.

Part of my attempt to get this insight, I bought every manual I know about, and have bought the omnibus Chiltons for 1950 - 1960, and 1960 - 1967 in the hopes of filling in the gaps.

obviously, detailed responses from those "who have been there" are deeply appreciated.

<center>
Terry, North Texas
1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
(in stage 1 resto "Project A")
http://sterkel.org/avanti
1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
2000 VW Jetta GLS
1999 Toyota rice burner
</center>

[Mike]

Is it correct, that the Avaanti oil pan can be removed with the steering bellcrank in place? It would certainly save a lot of work, if you only have to disconnect the tie rods. Has anyone done this? Did you have to jack up the engine?
Mike M.

[Karl]

You will have to raise the engine. About 4 inches to clear the main caps.If your into it this far .Why not just pull it out.As it will be alot easier to work onJust my thoughts..........

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

[64V-K7]

I recall, a long time ago, (64 R2) that I removed the starter, the oil filter, the tie rods, also disconnected the bellcrank from everything and removed it and also dropped out the center pin to get as much room as I could.
My means of installing the pan gasket, is generally to clean the engine flange with alcohol, use six, short, studs, like Rich says. I use contact adhesive for sealer, spray it on the engine flange and help locate the gasket, using the studs. You'll then have to deal with the filler block issues, but the studs will help mount the pan also.

[ROADRACELARK]

Karl has the right idea...after going through all that work just to "clear a path", then you're gona' be working over your head trying to keep the gaskets in place while not knocking things loose while stuffing the pan back up where it came from[xx(][V]. You could have the motor out and on a stand in half that time. Drain the oil, pull the pan, roll er' over. every thing is right there easy to work on, plus, now would be the ideal time to change out those freeze plugs and hose out the block. The engine will thank you. A LOT less stress and less chance for a mistake. (mis-aligned gasket....leak[xx(]) Just my
opinion. Like the old timers say..."work smart, not hard."
Dan Miller

[img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
Road Racers turn left AND right.

[sbca96]

Also make sure that the rear seal is actually leaking, the majority
of oil coming out of a Stude motor is from the front inadequate seal.
As you drive, the oil gets thrown back to the rear of the engine and
collects at the back of the pan. Also, I just turned a "major" oil
leak into a "minor" oil leak by replacing the oil pressure gauge hose
at the passenger top rear of the engine. On the Avanti this hose has
to come from under the stainless cover, and mine was cut by the cover
and torn underneath by ... age? Who knows. Just thought it was a
point worth mentioning. Also, most of your part house seal swelling
leak stoppers work pretty good actually. With a new front seal, and
some oil stop leak - you might not even notice it anymore.

EDIT : Its a Studebaker, its ALWAYS going to leak oil, thats how you
tell if some must be added = it stops leaking![)]

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

[jjones]

I consider those small puddles under my Studebaker not as oil leaks, but as my little truck simply marking her territory. Works for me, and beats the hell out of fighting a probably unwinnable battle.

jj

[rdmaxon]

I just want to say,I have seen your post before about the oil line,and I have went and looked for it on my Avanti but,I didn't find it until today when I caught on that it was the gauge line you were referring to.At any rate I found it and mine looks fine. I keep reading and learning from these and your posts,so thanks.RD Maxon

quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Also make sure that the rear seal is actually leaking, the majority
of oil coming out of a Stude motor is from the front inadequate seal.
As you drive, the oil gets thrown back to the rear of the engine and
collects at the back of the pan. Also, I just turned a "major" oil
leak into a "minor" oil leak by replacing the oil pressure gauge hose
at the passenger top rear of the engine. On the Avanti this hose has
to come from under the stainless cover, and mine was cut by the cover
and torn underneath by ... age? Who knows. Just thought it was a
point worth mentioning. Also, most of your part house seal swelling
leak stoppers work pretty good actually. With a new front seal, and
some oil stop leak - you might not even notice it anymore.

EDIT : Its a Studebaker, its ALWAYS going to leak oil, thats how you
tell if some must be added = it stops leaking![)]

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires