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What is the best way to attach inner and outer fender?

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  • Body: What is the best way to attach inner and outer fender?

    I am grinding out the outer fender flange from the inner fenders on my 65 Commander and I got to wondering how others have reattatched the two. I have POR on the new outer fender and I am noticing that the inner fender has rust under the spot welded sections so I am thinking that I will grind and wire wheel the rust away and use multiple coats of rust converter to cover the bare metal and when I assemble the inner and outer fenders to the car use pop rivets with backing washers instead of spotwelding and once the two parts are joined wipe a good coat of POR over the joint.

    But if I was to weld it it would have rust spots in the joint in short order. By riveting it I should be able to keep the joint sealed. I payed to much for these outer skins to put the parts together with a rust spot started by spot welding.


    I have the left inner fender ground clean now and those spot welds were so tiny that I could not even see a dimple so I just used my small rotary grinder and cut the outer skins off so that the inner fenders would be close to stock before they were spotwelded. The right side I can see the dimples but I am doing it the same way as it does not make sence to do one fender one way and the other differently. I am thinking that if I use the steel pop rivets with backing washers I will be able to assemble the inner and outer fenders with the front airdam and radiator support and get everthing lined up and once everything is line up and bolted solid drill and poprivit the inner and outer fenders together. Yes I could weld it but I have so much POR on my new skins that they would likely catch fire if I tried welding even if I used my mig.
    Last edited by studebakerkid; 05-04-2015, 06:31 AM.
    If you car is ugly then it better be fast.....

    65 2dr sedan
    64 2dr sedan (Pinkie)
    61 V8 Tcab
    63 Tcab 20R powered
    55 Commander Wagon
    54 Champion Wagon
    46 Gibson Model A
    50 JD MC
    45 Agricat
    67 Triumph T100
    66 Bultaco Matadore

  • #2
    That's why I have a can of weld through primer on the shelf. Just be sure to have a fume mask handy. I take 'em apart by drilling the welds apart with a spot weld cutter so I can weld them back together. I still think they paid the welders by the number of welds they used.

    Studebaker didn't use no stinkin' pop rivets, Bob
    , ,

    Comment


    • #3
      On my 64 Daytona that was restored in 1999 and then had NOS fenders added in 2000, I drilled out the factory spot welds on the inner fenders from the inside, then plug welded the inner fender to the NOS outer. Cleaned the weld, epoxy primed the weld and touched up with color. Its now been 14 years and still looks like factory spot weld, which was my objective.

      Bob
      Bob
      Welland Ontario
      60 Lark Convertible
      64 Daytona
      sigpic
      "They were meant to be driven ... so keep on cruizin"

      Comment


      • #4
        It was 47 years ago when I had a front end collision with my mint condition low-mileage '65 Cruiser. I turned to the original dealership from whom it was ordered, Louie Sipka of the tiny community of Bannister Michigan (a one man, two car garage Studebaker 'dealership', But Louie sure knew his Studebakers, and was 'straight shooter' as honest and conscientious as the day was long)
        When the new fenders came in Louie called me up and we consulted on how to go about assembling them. A experienced body man Louie suggested that he could braze them, and that is what we went with.
        He cleaned the metal and did a beautiful job, ground the brazed joint smooth the whole length, and finished and painted it appeared as though fender and apron had been manufactured as a single piece. Made it easy to keep clean and I never had a spot or stain of rust form along those seams again.
        Now have a '64 Daytona and a set of NOS skins and will again be utilizing this method. (will trim the overlapping flange so there will be minimal chance of a moisture trapping rust forming pocket. Mig welding would also work (but almost no one had Mig's circa 1968)

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        • #5
          Jessie J. Mig welding would be better today then brazing. As you said years ago that's all we had but today there are better systems. If you can find a local body shop that has one of the newer spot welders you would be ahead of the game to pay them to weld it for you. Less rust issues down the road a few years.

          Comment


          • #6
            As said -
            Use a spot weld removal "drill" to cut out the spot welds.
            I have only used pop rivets for attaching fiberglass fenders.
            In the past, I have brazed them, but there are better ways now.

            One of the main things is to be sure that your alignment is CORRECT before you progress with any welding.
            Gary L.
            Wappinger, NY

            SDC member since 1968
            Studebaker enthusiast much longer

            Comment


            • #7
              From a modern body shop perspective, there are adhesives that are just as strong, if not stronger than welding. Glue the overlap, clap down, let sit over night and reweld in the morning. My Daytona will need to have the left fender replaced. I'll use the adhesive as part of the repair...
              Tom - Bradenton, FL

              1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
              1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Swifster View Post
                From a modern body shop perspective, there are adhesives that are just as strong, if not stronger than welding. Glue the overlap, clap down, let sit over night and reweld in the morning. My Daytona will need to have the left fender replaced. I'll use the adhesive as part of the repair...
                I am not up on modern techniques, but I can not think of a way to clamp (what I guess you mean by "clap down") this joint between the inner and outer fenders.
                Gary L.
                Wappinger, NY

                SDC member since 1968
                Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                Comment


                • #9
                  You could do what I'am thinking of doing on my hawk fenders as both of those have the inner and outer fenders separated. I'am thinking of using a flat head bolt and a nut rather than spot welds or glue. Wont be stock but that doesn't bother me. Plus if it ever needs to come back apart easy to do.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't think it matters if you weld or pop rivet the joint: rust results from having the two metal surfaces trap water between them, especially if unpainted. Whether you weld, rivet, or use bolts, the only areas in real contact are under the heads or weld points, everywhere else will have a small gap. Weld-through primer and plug welds with a MIG gun should do the job just fine.

                    Weld up and grind smooth the old spot weld holes. A piece of 1/4" thick copper clamped behind the flange will enable the holes to be filled without sticking to the copper. Use a hammer and dolly to get the surfaces smooth before priming. You can pull the joint together before welding by putting some sheet metal screws in place, then weld up the screw holes after the rest of the plug welds are done. The sheet metal screws will let you be sure of alignment before welding. Finish off with seam sealer, POR-15, or something else on the back side and put on some rubber undercoat to help keep water out of the seam.

                    Here are the inner fenders on my '63 Wagonaire before and after filling the old holes.
                    Click image for larger version

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                    Gary Ash
                    Dartmouth, Mass.

                    '32 Indy car replica (in progress)
                    ’41 Commander Land Cruiser
                    '48 M5
                    '65 Wagonaire Commander
                    '63 Wagonaire Standard
                    web site at http://www.studegarage.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I like both posts number 9 and 10. There was a time when the inner fenders were bolted in rather than welded. The bolt-in models are great to work on. (As with my 1948 Business coupe) My '60 Lark has the welded inner fenders. My preference is the bolted style. However, as Union contracts kept increasing cost of manufacturing...cheaper methods, quicker assembly, and decreased assembly "time" became the overriding motivation to keep costs in check. Spot welded assemblies became much more cost effective than the time consuming hole punching/drilling and installation of bolts.

                      If I were building a solid "driver," and not a "show car," I would not hesitate to use bolts. The problem with pop rivets is a tendency to loosen up over time. As Gary mentioned, tech screws (self drilling) and rivets can assist in clamping during the welding process, but I would want to weld the panel in place, rather than depend on rivets for the permanent repair.

                      As for rust, it is a matter of oxygen (oxidation)...the key is to use a durable coating/sealer that keeps away the exposure to air (thus...oxygen).
                      John Clary
                      Greer, SC

                      SDC member since 1975

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This is a good idea,may I add to this.I would drill holes in the inner fender to accept the bolts being used (5/16") or so.weld the head of the bolt to the bottom side of the inner fender.then you're just using a socket on the top side to tighten the nut down,and the bolts would be cut so when all is tightened they are exactly flush with one another.
                        Originally posted by swvalcon View Post
                        You could do what I'am thinking of doing on my hawk fenders as both of those have the inner and outer fenders separated. I'am thinking of using a flat head bolt and a nut rather than spot welds or glue. Wont be stock but that doesn't bother me. Plus if it ever needs to come back apart easy to do.
                        Joseph R. Zeiger

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think what I will do is weld a nut to the back side of the inner fender and then use a flat headed bolt maybe even with a torque's head so all I have to do is line them up and run them in.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by swvalcon View Post
                            I think what I will do is weld a nut to the back side of the inner fender and then use a flat headed bolt maybe even with a torque's head so all I have to do is line them up and run them in.
                            Keep in mind that you may want to build in some "adjust-ability" as you locate the fasteners. If you'll look at the cars with "bolt-on" fenders/inner fenders, you'll see some slotted holes. This gives you an opportunity to make adjustments. Back in the days when our cars were built, you would see two-by-fours, crow bars, and various hand crafted tools improvised by assembly workers to make body panels fit. In addition, there were various shims applied by skilled workers used to "bending" and shimming the panels. As recent as the mid 1990's, I witnessed these craftsmen ply their skills on assembly lines.

                            For our era cars, it is a necessity.
                            John Clary
                            Greer, SC

                            SDC member since 1975

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Steve,your way is fine and will look much better.I was simply thinking function only,and the stud of the bolt would hold the fender in place even with out the nut on until things get buttoned up.
                              Originally posted by swvalcon View Post
                              I think what I will do is weld a nut to the back side of the inner fender and then use a flat headed bolt maybe even with a torque's head so all I have to do is line them up and run them in.
                              Joseph R. Zeiger

                              Comment

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