Frame / Springs: upper control arm shafts

[dickeedee]

Is there a way to tell if the upper control arm shafts are in backwards?
I read in the manual that they only go in 1 way ,to have the proper caster.
It says that the holes are drilled offset, but maybe they stopped this in 1964?

[r1lark]

What year car? I'm not real familiar with pre-'51, so the following is based on '51 thru '66 passenger car suspension......

Assuming you are talking about the upper inner control arm shafts, they do not impact the caster. They do, however, impact the camber. There is really not a 'backwards' - but the mounting thru-holes in the shafts are drilled off-center to provide a large camber change depending on which way they are installed.

[dickeedee]

It's a '64.
I get it now, thanks.
I was under the impression that 1 hole was drilled off center more than the other, but that isn't the case.They are both offset the same and
by unbolting and flipping the arm over it would really change the camber,right?

[JoeHall]

Paul,
The camber is adjusted by both, the upper control arm shaft (60/61 and later) and the eccentric you mentioned. On earlier models, it was only adjustable at the eccentric, since the holes in the upper control arm shaft were centered.

As for caster, the minuscule range of adjustment available is at the eccentric, by screwing it forward/rearward. When screwed in either direction, when it hits, "bottom" that's all there is. About all you can do in that small range is to insure both sides match (if you are lucky).

[dickeedee]

ok, thanks, I can bolt it back together now, and not worry when it goes in for an alignment. I get the caster thing when the top of the kingpin gets adjusted to one side or the other .
Thanks for the lesson in geometry..-Paul

[Skybolt]

Paul,
The camber is adjusted by both, the upper control arm shaft (60/61 and later) and the eccentric you mentioned. On earlier models, it was only adjustable at the eccentric, since the holes in the upper control arm shaft were centered.

As for caster, the minuscule range of adjustment available is at the eccentric, by screwing it forward/rearward. When screwed in either direction, when it hits, "bottom" that's all there is. About all you can do in that small range is to insure both sides match (if you are lucky).

I think you meant (50/51) and not (60/61). as all later model 59-64 used the same inner upper shafts except taxi and police cars. But I believe the holes were the same but the ends were different to accommodate metal bushings.

Len

[JoeHall]

I think you meant (50/51) and not (60/61). as all later model 59-64 used the same inner upper shafts except taxi and police cars. But I believe the holes were the same but the ends were different to accommodate metal bushings.

Len

Len,
What I was referring to was one of a several simultaneous changes, began in 1960 in some model Studes, and included in all of them by 61. One of the simultaneous changes was the "late style" king pins, with a wee bit more caster built into them.
AFAIK, prior to 1960, all of the upper control arm shafts were drilled on center, for the mount bolts

[altair]

Just an additional note of interest I have a 54 champion and a 63 lark and both have off set shafts however they are opposite to each other. One car faces in ward and the other car faces out ward???

[JoeHall]

Just an additional note of interest I have a 54 champion and a 63 lark and both have off set shafts however they are opposite to each other. One car faces in ward and the other car faces out ward???

Not unusual to find the later shafts in earlier Studes, since they are interchangeable, and provide an extra 1/" of outboard throw, for more positive camber. I always swap in later style shafts if working on an older Stude, but do not bother with swapping the late style king pins though, because the difference is negligible.

[Skybolt]

Len,
What I was referring to was one of a several simultaneous changes, began in 1960 in some model Studes, and included in all of them by 61. One of the simultaneous changes was the "late style" king pins, with a wee bit more caster built into them.
AFAIK, prior to 1960, all of the upper control arm shafts were drilled on center, for the mount bolts

Joe, "ALL" is a big word. Where did you get that information. Is it in some parts book or memo that went out? I don't have that information in my parts book and both, my original 59 car, and a parts car, I bought have the offset holes in the inner upper shaft. I do see where in the chassis parts book it mentions the threaded shaft for some 62 and onward models but no break in the part for any years for standard cars. If the holes are fractionally more offset, then maybe, but to say that the earlier than 61 were centralized I just don't see it. Please educate me with some documented information so I may refer to it and not be using wrong information in future.

Please refer to the link where it mentions UPPER CONTROL ARM (1954-60): Removal - http://ricebrosplymouth.com/NSD/15053.pdf

I believe this is from some manual prior to 1961.

Len

[JoeHall]

Joe, "ALL" is a big word. Where did you get that information. Is it in some parts book or memo that went out? I don't have that information in my parts book and both, my original 59 car, and a parts car, I bought have the offset holes in the inner upper shaft. I do see where in the chassis parts book it mentions the threaded shaft for some 62 and onward models but no break in the part for any years for standard cars. If the holes are fractionally more offset, then maybe, but to say that the earlier than 61 were centralized I just don't see it. Please educate me with some documented information so I may refer to it and not be using wrong information in future.

Please refer to the link where it mentions UPPER CONTROL ARM (1954-60): Removal - http://ricebrosplymouth.com/NSD/15053.pdf

I believe this is from some manual prior to 1961.

Len

Hi Len,
Looks like the split was sometime in 1962. In the 59-64 Parts Manual, page 1204, referencing figure 1204, it lists part #1204-35 as, "SHAFT, upper control arm pivot", with two different part numbers: the first number for, "All models"; the second for, "All 62,63,64". The first part number references Note 1, and the second references Note 2.

Note 1- Used on USA cars, Y1-Y3-F3-P3 before serial numbers 62S-12,830, 62V-10,608. For Canadian cars, Y1 before 62SC-2,511, 62VC-1464. Note 2 simply says, "Used on and after car serials in Note 1".

I have no idea why the notes do not address other model cars.

Perhaps I should add, it is near impossible to discern the two, when the mount bolts are in place, and on the car. If you lay both types side by side, you will see why.

Hope this is clear as mud.

[Skybolt]

Hi Len,
Looks like the split was in early 1962. In the 59-64 Parts Manual, page 1204, referencing figure 1204, it lists part #1204-35 as, "SHAFT, upper control arm pivot". There, it list two different part numbers: the first says, "All models"; the second says, "All 62,63,64". The first part number references Note 1, and the second part number references Note 2.

Note 1- Used on USA cars, Y1-Y3-F3-P3 before serial numbers 62S-12,830, 62V-10,608. For Canadian cars, Y1 before 62SC-2,511, 62VC-1464. Note 2 simply says, "Used on and after car serials in Note 1".

I have no idea why the notes do not address other model cars.

Perhaps I should add, it is near impossible to discern the two, when the mount bolts are in place, and on the car. If you lay both types side by side, you will see why.

Hope this is clear as mud.

Joe, I don't know how you don't see the picture above those notes on page 373. They are referring to the threaded end inner shafts. Look at the picture. They are for police and taxis from 62 onwards not regular passenger cars.

Len

[JoeHall]

Joe, I don't know how you don't see the picture above those notes on page 373. They are referring to the threaded end inner shafts. Look at the picture. They are for police and taxis from 62 onwards not regular passenger cars.

Len

Len,
If on page 374, I believe you are looking at part 1204-6, which is a kit for 62, 63 and 64, that includes shaft, part #524859, which is the second serial number listed, which is found on page 374, and says it is for 62,63 and 64. I am not sure what you are not understanding. Put another way, shaft part #524589 is for 62-64, and shaft #1546662 is for prior years. They are both found on page 374, under illustration number 1204-35.

[Skybolt]

Len,
If on page 374, I believe you are looking at part 1204-6, which is a kit for 62, 63 and 64, that includes shaft, part #524859, which is the second serial number listed, which is found on page 374, and says it is for 62,63 and 64. I am not sure what you are not understanding. Put another way, shaft part #524589 is for 62-64, and shaft #1546662 is for prior years. They are both found on page 374, under illustration number 1204-35.

If you put all that information together on both pages and in the list of parts, as it mentioned that the threaded shaft I am referring to is included in the kit on page 373.

Len.

[Skybolt]

Len,
If on page 374, I believe you are looking at part 1204-6, which is a kit for 62, 63 and 64, that includes shaft, part #524859, which is the second serial number listed, which is found on page 374, and says it is for 62,63 and 64. I am not sure what you are not understanding. Put another way, shaft part #524589 is for 62-64, and shaft #1546662 is for prior years. They are both found on page 374, under illustration number 1204-35.

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