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  • #31
    I would bank the material not being completely cleaned out in and around the bearings when the block was prepped to be the biggest contributor. The gummy rings may have come from the media around the bearings loosening up and find its way up into the rings when the oil was circulated into the bores. The material in the choke tube and the intake manifold may have made the problem even worse as it was packed in the choke tube and the intake manifold passages. When the car was started the media loosened in the tube and manifold, and was pulled into the combustion chamber. I would say the material in the choke just added to the problem as it may come up to such a tiny amount. I dunno how your choke tube is setup but the one on my AFB is "looped" before the choke in the top of the carb and after the butterflies in the base of the carb.


    1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
    1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
    [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
    [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
    [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
    [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]
    1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
    1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
    1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
    1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

    Comment


    • #32
      I would bank the material not being completely cleaned out in and around the bearings when the block was prepped to be the biggest contributor. The gummy rings may have come from the media around the bearings loosening up and find its way up into the rings when the oil was circulated into the bores. The material in the choke tube and the intake manifold may have made the problem even worse as it was packed in the choke tube and the intake manifold passages. When the car was started the media loosened in the tube and manifold, and was pulled into the combustion chamber. I would say the material in the choke just added to the problem as it may come up to such a tiny amount. I dunno how your choke tube is setup but the one on my AFB is "looped" before the choke in the top of the carb and after the butterflies in the base of the carb.


      1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
      1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
      [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
      [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
      [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
      [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]
      1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
      1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
      1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
      1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

      Comment


      • #33
        I'm not trying to sound like a know it all, but you never want to sandblast or glass bead blast blocks, heads and such because it's nearly impossible to remove it all. As we all know, glass beads are made from glass and glass is made from sand. If they used media made from walnut hulls, cherry pits, etc then the media shouldn't have hurt anything. If the rings were gummy on one cylinder, note that antifreeze will gum things up. Was this cylinder low on compression?

        Comment


        • #34
          Did you remove all the core plugs and all the pipe plugs? The cam has
          a couple plugs in the front and back for the oil passages if my memory
          is not failing me. I would tend to feel the machine shop screwed up.

          Tom
          '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
          Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
          http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
          I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

          Comment


          • #35
            By the way Tom, beautiful engine compartment!

            Comment


            • #36
              [:I]I wish I could take credit for that being mine, but its just the
              best picture I could find on the Internet to show the clutter. All of
              my engine compartments look .... used.

              Tom

              quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

              By the way Tom, beautiful engine compartment!
              '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
              Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
              http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
              I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

              Comment


              • #37
                quote:Originally posted by sbca96

                Did you remove all the core plugs and all the pipe plugs? The cam has
                a couple plugs in the front and back for the oil passages if my memory
                is not failing me. I would tend to feel the machine shop screwed up.

                Tom
                Yes, all the core plugs and pipe plugs were removed.
                64 Champ long bed V8
                55/53 Studebaker President S/R
                53 Hudson Super Wasp Coupe

                Comment


                • #38
                  quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

                  quote:Originally posted by Kdancy
                  I just don't see any way it would have passed up the choke tube, into the carb choke spring housing and then into the combustion chambers, and especially with enough material to kill the rings in 20+ minutes. So I think we can now rule that issue out.
                  Is it the same blast material you found in the carb? If so, perhaps there WAS a way for it to migrate into the carb then into the engine.


                  There is no vacuum or pressure on the heat riser, only the rise of the hot air as the water temp rises, going up to the choke housing.
                  No, the carb media looked different. My friend Jerry, reminded me that after we started the engine and ran it with carb # 1, we could never get it cranked up with carb # 2 - the rebuilt carb. Also, when he went to change out the heat riser tube line that screws into the carb choke housing, he discovered the tube was totally stopped up with some kind of shellac looking material, probably been in there for 20+ years. He had to straighten the line out before he could poke the material out with a stiff wire.
                  So in effect, no media could have made it up the tube into the choke housing to begin with when the engine was actually run.
                  There is no trace of any media in the bottom of the intake manifold ribbed floor area. So I believe that is a non issue. Also remember guys, the rings were shot in 20 minutes of running. Even a hand full of blasting media, while not good, is not going to destroy the rings that quick. And it was pretty even across every piston but 1.
                  Also just dawned on me that the gummy material was probably the engine start fluid that we resorted to after we could no get the engine to run after run in as the fluid has a heavy oil film. I finally got it cranked up with carb cleaner but could not get it to idle below 800rpm and the vacuum guage read had low vacuum or timing too retarded reading. Did not run but a couple of minutes and never revved it up.
                  To me, the evidence is sure looking more and more like the rings were wrong or not gapped properly. I wish I had saved the oil as I would have a sample tested.
                  64 Champ long bed V8
                  55/53 Studebaker President S/R
                  53 Hudson Super Wasp Coupe

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Just a thought. I assume the rebilder removed the ridge at the top of the cylinders? If left in, the ridge could damage the top ring.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      A couple more thoughts since you have it apart. If there is any type of crude that has gone into the engine, and it appears there has, it can be in the rocker shafts now too so you might want to disassemble those, take the 1/2" plugs out of each end and clean them out real good. Takes some time but might well be worth it. Also all other passages should be cleaned, especially the lifter gallaries (and don't forget to replace that hidden plug on the driver side at the back by the distributor).

                      Also on the heat tube going to the carb. I assume there are TWO tubes coming from the intake manifold. These tubes form a "loop" inside the intake and with these being 50 years old, a lot of rust, etc., could have formed and rusted a hole in the tube inside the intake. This would let any gunk collected from the exhaust (heating, cooling, sweating, carbone, etc.) go into the carb. This could also act as a small vacuum leak.

                      You could check this by putting a rubber hose on one tube coming out of the intake, put your finger over the other tube and should not be able to blow through it.

                      None of this may be any problem in your case but just a couple thoughts to go along with all the others.

                      Oh, one more thing; if you used hypereutectic pistons, the top ring should have at least .020" end gap as these pistons transfer more heat to the ring. Unless you used the flat top or cup pistons instead of the full dish, you likely don't have hypereutectic pistons. Maybe you used the original pistons. I don't recall reading if you put in new pistons or not.

                      Ted

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The engine was bored .060 to clean up the cylinder walls from an older .030 bore. New hypereutectic pistons.
                        The manifold has a single tube closed off at the bottom (57 GH 2br).
                        I'll check the rockers as well. I had already cleaned them out but more stuff could have gotten in.
                        One question I have, they heat the blocks to 650 before putting them
                        in the blasting machine (no I won't allow that again), would that not have broken down any grease or grime in the passages? There was some stuff in the bottom of the pan that looked like gunk in a pan with 100,000 miles on it. Dark gray. I thought at first it was the assembly lube residue. I could not feel any grit in it. Feels like 90wt oil.
                        ???

                        53commander HDTP
                        53 Champion HDTP
                        61 Cursed Purple Hawk
                        64 Champ long bed V8
                        64 Champ long bed V8
                        55/53 Studebaker President S/R
                        53 Hudson Super Wasp Coupe

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          quote:Originally posted by Kdancy
                          There was some stuff in the bottom of the pan that looked like gunk in a pan with 100,000 miles on it. Dark gray.
                          I've seen a water/oil mix that was dark gray. I hope that's not it.


                          Dick Steinkamp
                          Bellingham, WA

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            You say the rings were shot, shot in what way? How was this determined? Ring wear is determined by the end gap when the ring is inserted into the cylinder. The rebuilder should have checked this during the reassembly process to ensure the enw rings had adequate clearance. Comparing the before and after distance would be a good way to determine if the rings are actually worn. As far as the oil raising the compression 20 psi, I don't consider that significant. That's about what you'd get on nearly any engine and for one with freshly honed cylinders and new rings, that isn't much at all. I've tracked valve clearances and compression readings on one of my bikes since it was new. I checked back and found the 20,000 mile compression readings averaged 20 psi higher than at the 500 mile checkup and is the result of polished cylinder walls and seated rings, something your engine never came close to having.

                            As far as the rings being gummed up on one cylinder, I don't really think that's the result of any thing used to get it going. Ether usually has a very light oil added but is insignificant (squirt a bunch on your hand and try to find an oily residue) and if you used carb cleaner, the ones I've used haven't left any kind of oily residue. If I found gummed up rings on one cylinder, I'd look for a coolant leak. Antifreeze will glue up an engine so tight you'll never turn it over again, even with a 1" drive socket and pipe hoop for leverage (I'm speaking from experience).

                            I can see how heating up a block could melt loose some oily gunk and may be done to keep any goo from holding blasting media, but it would have been diluted with engine oil and to gum up the rings, it would have had to get past the oil ring and up to the compression rings which I think is unlikely. In addition, I can't see it gumming up just one piston and not the rest. If the mechanic used the same lube on all pistons during reassembly, I'd lean toward the coolant leak. After heating the block up to 650 degrees, was the block decked or at least checked for warp before the heads went on? If not, that could be the cause of a coolant leak. Good luck and hang in there.

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