Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Advice needed ! no hair left ----

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Advice needed ! no hair left ----

    okay guys, This is a 57 GH motor that was just rebuilt. Got it back together and into the car and it cranked right up and I ran it 20 minutes at 2000 rpm to break in the new lifters and cam. Turned it off and started it back up several times. Several days later, Jerry put a pertronix and new plug wires from Steve Allen in it and could not get it to fire up. Removed it and put it into his car-- ran like a kitten. Put the points back into the first car and I could not get what I felt was good spark plus the old stromburg was leaking and looked like it had been worked on several times. I went ahead and pulled the carb and had a stude vendor to rebuild it. Got it back on to make sure that was okay and still no start. Pulled the new plug wires and put the mopar ones back on and the spark fire looked better. Re-checked the valve adjustment settings. With judicious use of carb cleaner it fired up and ran good above 800 rpm but could not get it to idle without shutting off below 800rpm. Carb leaking out the body gasket areas. Pulled carb, re-set the float and re-installed. (found media blasting material in carb when we had it apart). The vacuum guage we used to set the idle and carb up was reading "spark too retarded or vacuum leak". Checked for vacuum leaks and fooled with advancing distributer to no avail. Checked compression on each cylinder. Very low 60 to 80 with one at 118. New engine with rings not seated ? (head # 535976)should be the right ones.
    Oh yea, in all the above process, we pulled the carb off of Jerry's 57 GH and installed it on this one -started and ran the car at 550 rpm. So I am looking for another carb as I am sending the rebuilt one back.
    Ideas ????
    64 Champ long bed V8
    55/53 Studebaker President S/R
    53 Hudson Super Wasp Coupe

  • #2
    Wow ... I cant imagine a new engine with compression that low. I never
    did a test right after the 2000 rpm run, but I would think it has to
    be in the 125-150 range by now. You might be getting a lot of pressure
    back up through the carb from the valves? I would guess their too tight.
    You mention that you checked that, so this is weird. I have never had
    much luck with any Stude two barrel carbs, the airhorns warp and leak.
    You might have the body checked with a straight edge. They leak from
    the front near the accel pump - if I am thinking of the same model.

    Tom

    '63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires
    '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
    Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
    I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree with Tom. Very weird that the compression is that low. That would not be characteristic of unseated rings in a new engine. I don't believe a cylinder will actually fire with compression at 60 pounds...especially on the starter. My guess is that it starts on a couple of cylinders that actually have compression, then the rest will sort of fire over 800 RPM.

      It's odd that it seemed to have compression (at least it ran OK) at first. If you are sure of the correct valve adjustment, could be guides not reamed correctly for the valves and valves sticking in guides? Rings not gapped properly?

      Sounds like there are multiple problems at this point, which makes it tougher to track down.

      Did you remove the whole distributor and put it in Jerry's car or just the Pertronix unit? If not the whole distributor, perhaps there is a partial or intermittent short or other problem with yours.

      Did ALL the problems go away when you installed Jerry's carb? Did the compression come back up?

      I guess I'd try to work on one thing at a time. The compression scares me the most. I'd find out what that is all about. Once corrected, I'd use a known good carb and known good distributor (maybe those out of Jerry's car?) then change one thing at a time to isolate the other problem(s).




      Dick Steinkamp
      Bellingham, WA

      Comment


      • #4
        For what it's worth...I agree with Dick....there's a "multitude" of possibilities.

        Sounds like you're just gonna have to "carefully" take everything apart and carefully look at / diagnose each and every main part in the engine.

        If the rings were gapped too tight...they could have dug their way into the cyl. walls (after getting up to temperature)....that would be one cause of low cylinder pressure. Same cause...broken rings...same outcome...low compression.

        Just start digging, find out for yourself, "exactly" what's happening.

        Mike

        Comment


        • #5
          quote:Originally posted by Kdancy

          Checked compression on each cylinder. Very low 60 to 80 with one at 118. Ideas ????
          Did you remember to open the throttle when you were doing the compression tests? If air can't get into the cylinders there wont be anything to compress.

          Jerry Forrester
          Douglasville, Georgia
          Be sure to check out my eBay store
          http://stores.ebay.com/CHROME-CHROME-CHROME_
          for your shiny Stude stuff

          More pix of Leo here...http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/d...rrystudebaker/
          Jerry Forrester
          Forrester's Chrome
          Douglasville, Georgia

          See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/tBjGzTk

          Comment


          • #6
            I dont recall opening the throttle up when doing compression tests on
            my Hawk engine, that was approximately 185 psi, with ported heads, and
            the Hyperutecnic pistons Myers was selling back in the early 90s.

            I also didnt open the TB up on my '93 Camaro when I did a compression
            test on it, that gave me ~155 psi on a 150k mile untouched LT1.

            I guess it would make a difference, since many seem to mention is the
            correct way, but I doubt its going to drop 100 psi from expected.

            Tom
            '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
            Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
            http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
            I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm going to purchase a new compression guage today, to eliminate the possiblilty of the 40 year old guage being bad.
              Yes, we did open the throttle up.
              No, we did not remove the whole distributor, just tried the pertronix in Jerry's car. I have a rebuilt later model distributor that we will try on the car.
              Thanks guys, I will keep you posted.

              53commander HDTP
              53 Champion HDTP
              61 Cursed Purple Hawk
              64 Champ long bed V8
              64 Champ long bed V8
              55/53 Studebaker President S/R
              53 Hudson Super Wasp Coupe

              Comment


              • #8
                ALWAYS....open the throttle completely if you want accurate cranking compression readings!

                Otherwise the the throttle blades...are...a big "plug" in the system! And we all know what plugs do...they stop things from happening.

                Mike

                Comment


                • #9
                  quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

                  ALWAYS....open the throttle completely if you want accurate cranking compression readings!

                  Otherwise the the throttle blades...are...a big "plug" in the system! And we all know what plugs do...they stop things from happening.
                  I'm going to have to try some "with" and "without" throttle open. Seems to me that at cranking speed, more than enough air would get by the throttle plate to allow the cylinders to fill. Shoot, at idle which is many times the RPM of cranking speed, enough air seems to get by.


                  Dick Steinkamp
                  Bellingham, WA

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thats what I always thought. Both my Avanti and Camaro are able to
                    start each time without touching the throttle nor holding it to the
                    floor to remove the "plug" and let more air in. Good explanation.

                    Tom

                    quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
                    I'm going to have to try some "with" and "without" throttle open. Seems to me that at cranking speed, more than enough air would get by the throttle plate to allow the cylinders to fill.
                    '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                    Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                    I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp
                      I'm going to have to try some "with" and "without" throttle open.
                      I tried it.

                      My 327 Chevy...9.2/1 CR, forged pistons, engine stone cold. One cylinder tested.

                      With throttle closed 160 pounds
                      At WOT 170 pounds

                      So based on this sample of one...compression DOES come up when tested at WOT...but only 6%.



                      Dick Steinkamp
                      Bellingham, WA

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've also found that a closed throttle will lower the compression readings but not drastically. Something else, engines are capable of starting (and running) with extremely low compression readings. Like the time my dad checked the compression on grandpa's old Chevy, 15 psi on one cylinder and zero on the other five. Since the old car would start even in cold weather, he figured the gauge was shot and checked his car but found it had normal readings. Also consider that the larger single cylinder Kohler engines, single cylinder motorcycles and two cylinder John Deeres had a compression release for starting. Automatic on the first two with the exhaust valve being held open slightly and hand operated petcocks on the tractors. Many of those old JD's were made to run on kerosene as well and had compression ratios in the 5.5-6:1 range, so with low compression, petcocks venting compression and cranking the engine by hand (did plenty of that as a kid) there wasn't a lot of compression left to get things going, but they did. By the way, did you check the compression with the engine warmed up or cold? Warm is the way to do it because pistons expand and can change the readings dramatically. In addition, 20 minutes of running without load hasn't even began to break things in. You need more time and more load; the increased combustion pressure forces the rings tighter against the cylinder wall and scrubs off the high spots quicker.

                        I'd get the carb business fixed first. You never know, the carb may have leaked raw fuel into the manifold during the couple day period between first starting it and after installing the ignition. Wet plugs don't like to fire no matter how good the ignition is. I'd also check the ignition timing with a timing light because it could be way off. Over the weekend I checked the timing on the car my 16 year old boy is fixing up. It would start readily and move itself, but it was pretty doggy. By the tone of the exhaust note I figured the timing was retarded but I couldn't get my old fashioned timing light to work well on the high energy ignition. So I bought a new inductance timing light and STILL couldn't find the timing mark on the flywheel, even after smearing yellow livestock marking crayon on the spot. I did finally find a yellow speck and ends up the timing was so retarded that the mark I was looking for wasn't even coming into the opening in the bell housing. It ended up being at least 15 degrees retarded and probably more. But even so, it started and ran.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well, I bought a new compression guage to double check things. Even lower than the old guage was reading.
                          I did check compression with a cold engine. I double checked timing when the engine was running the first time. We ran it 20-25 minutes at 2000 rpm just for the new cam and lifters.
                          Have the engine almost ready to pull, will take it back to the machine shop tomorrow if possible.
                          I collected some of the bead blast material we found in the newly rebuilt carb. I am sending the carb back for refund (450.00)

                          53commander HDTP
                          53 Champion HDTP
                          61 Cursed Purple Hawk
                          64 Champ long bed V8
                          64 Champ long bed V8
                          55/53 Studebaker President S/R
                          53 Hudson Super Wasp Coupe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Another possibility..... the cam gear was damaged when it was reinstalled and when you shut the engine down the last time the cam jumped time.

                            Jerry Forrester
                            Douglasville, Georgia
                            Be sure to check out my eBay store
                            http://stores.ebay.com/CHROME-CHROME-CHROME_
                            for your shiny Stude stuff

                            More pix of Leo here...http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/d...rrystudebaker/
                            Jerry Forrester
                            Forrester's Chrome
                            Douglasville, Georgia

                            See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/tBjGzTk

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jerry, I'll pull the cam cover before pulling the motor out and check it.

                              53commander HDTP
                              53 Champion HDTP
                              61 Cursed Purple Hawk
                              64 Champ long bed V8
                              64 Champ long bed V8
                              55/53 Studebaker President S/R
                              53 Hudson Super Wasp Coupe

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X