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59 Hawk 259 engine rebuild, heads advice

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  • 59 Hawk 259 engine rebuild, heads advice

    I am rebuilding by 259 engine. Car has 65K miles on it and to my knowledge very little has been done to the car. It still has the Studebaker shocks on it. After 15 years in a storage shop, I put the gas suction into a clean can of gas and the car cranked on the second try. Now I have in my garage and am pulling everything apart.

    I want the car original. Not looking for a hot rod, just a good running dependable engine.

    That said, the valve guides have .10 to .14 mm play, so they have to go. Any advice on what should be replaced just as good practice, even though they look OK.

    Like valves, springs, pushrods, lifters etc.
    How do you tell if a lifter is bad?
    And what about Std Vs Stainless valves? Double the price for stainless. What are the advantages?

    I'm an engineer, not a mechanic, but have been working on cars since I was 15 (that was 4 or 5 deades ago).

    Any and all advise please - I'll have more questions as I go.

    Dell
    59 Silver Hawk
    62 GT Hawk
    Dell
    59 Silver Hawk
    62 GT Hawk

  • #2
    If you are keeping it stock...
    Just do a stock rebuild. Maybe replace the guides, or knurl them.
    Think about it...
    1963 to now (or older)... 44 years (some of them hard)...
    Stock rebuild...
    Now add 44 years+ (easy duty for the next round)...
    See you for another rebuild in 2051...
    Pretty darned good for a blue collar car, huh?
    Jeff[8D]


    quote:Originally posted by wdsj

    I am rebuilding by 259 engine. Car has 65K miles on it and to my knowledge very little has been done to the car. It still has the Studebaker shocks on it. After 15 years in a storage shop, I put the gas suction into a clean can of gas and the car cranked on the second try. Now I have in my garage and am pulling everything apart.

    I want the car original. Not looking for a hot rod, just a good running dependable engine.

    That said, the valve guides have .10 to .14 mm play, so they have to go. Any advice on what should be replaced just as good practice, even though they look OK.

    Like valves, springs, pushrods, lifters etc.
    How do you tell if a lifter is bad?
    And what about Std Vs Stainless valves? Double the price for stainless. What are the advantages?

    I'm an engineer, not a mechanic, but have been working on cars since I was 15 (that was 4 or 5 deades ago).

    Any and all advise please - I'll have more questions as I go.

    Dell
    59 Silver Hawk
    62 GT Hawk
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff


    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

    Comment


    • #3
      sounds like good advice.
      the car will have an easy life in the future.

      Dell
      59 Silver Hawk
      62 GT Hawk
      Dell
      59 Silver Hawk
      62 GT Hawk

      Comment


      • #4
        Note: This is a old school suggestion. With that low a mileage, you might consider knurling the guides and installing Teflon seals. That combination will be at least as good as new guides with the factory seals. I get my lifter resurfaced if I'm installing a new cam, if not just put them back in the correct bore. I check the spring pressures, same with the push rods and reuse if within spec. Valves can usually be reground unless burned or worn. I'd replace the fiber timing gear with aluminum, maybe add a reground R2 + cam while it's apart. I get the block hot tanked and new cam bearing installed, check the crank and bores for wear and regrind or bore as necessary. You may find you can just rering the old pistons and not need to turn the crank. Studebaker even sold .001 and 002 bearing sets for slightly worn cranks, but they are getting hard to find.

        JDP/Maryland
        64 R2 GT cost to date
        $61,389.30
        63 R2 SuperHawk
        spent to date $6.00
        63 Lark 2 door
        54 Starlight
        52 Starliner
        51 Commander
        39 Coupe express
        39 Coupe express (rod)

        JDP Maryland

        Comment


        • #5
          One of the added little bonus options I did on a 259 I rebuilt as per JPs style of rebuild was to mill the heads .125. (yes, that is a full 1/8 inch) The Stude engine can stand the higher compression without any trouble and it creates a quench area in the combustion chamber which helps burn the air/fuel more efficiently. That was one of the cheapest and easiest power gains I ever made on a Stude engine. Throttle response was fantastic.
          sals54

          Comment


          • #6
            Boys...knurled guides are NOT nearly as good as new guides!

            First there are two ways of knurling guides...most use the cheaper ..easier method. It doesn't force as much material out of position.

            Think of this - take a sharp center punch and a light hammer. To help illustrate it more...use a piece of aluminum plate. Now place the center punch on the plate and give a good whack. See the little "volcano mouth" you created?
            Now...take a real "dull" center punch...you'll need a heavier hammer..and do the same thing. See the big "crater" you created?

            Notice how much more metal has been displaced!! BUT...it takes more force...hence a bit more time consuming and costly.

            Now when the guide reamer goes down the guide to resize it...there's much more metal for the guide to run on.

            And as to my first statement....in either case....there's MUCH less material for the valve stem to ride on with any knurled guide than a properly fixed guide.

            If you don't need a big guide to stem clearance taken up...a "properly" knurled guide will work for most Stude engines...that is...an engine not driven everyday.

            Mike

            Comment


            • #7
              JP commented that in conjuction with teflon seals knurling the guides will be as good as replacement. Knurling the valves works its just short lived but with the better seals I can see how it would be sufficent.
              Russ
              quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

              Boys...knurled guides are NOT nearly as good as new guides!

              First there are two ways of knurling guides...most use the cheaper ..easier method. It doesn't force as much material out of position.

              Think of this - take a sharp center punch and a light hammer. To help illustrate it more...use a piece of aluminum plate. Now place the center punch on the plate and give a good whack. See the little "volcano mouth" you created?
              Now...take a real "dull" center punch...you'll need a heavier hammer..and do the same thing. See the big "crater" you created?

              Notice how much more metal has been displaced!! BUT...it takes more force...hence a bit more time consuming and costly.

              Now when the guide reamer goes down the guide to resize it...there's much more metal for the guide to run on.

              And as to my first statement....in either case....there's MUCH less material for the valve stem to ride on with any knurled guide than a properly fixed guide.

              If you don't need a big guide to stem clearance taken up...a "properly" knurled guide will work for most Stude engines...that is...an engine not driven everyday.

              Mike
              Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
              57 SH (project)
              60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

              Russ Shop Foreman \"Rusty Nut Garage\"
              53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
              57 SH (project)
              60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

              Comment


              • #8
                I'll agree that new guides are a better choice if you intend to put some fairly serious miles in the heads, say 40,000 or so. I only say that because I've gone 30,000 plus on knurled guides/modern seals combination a few years back. Given the choice, I'd still take modern seals and worn guides over the new guides with factory seals. Of course, new guides and modern seals are the best choice if you can afford them.

                JDP/Maryland
                64 R2 GT spent to date
                $62,439.30
                63 R2 SuperHawk
                spent to date $54718.75
                63 Lark 2 door
                54 Starlight
                52 Starliner
                51 Commander
                39 Coupe express
                39 Coupe express (rod)

                JDP Maryland

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am going with new valve guides, new valves as needed. Though I don't expect to put many miles on the car, ya never know.
                  I'm new is this SC town and on the hunt for a machine shop. Heads are in the trunk of my car.
                  Stripping the engine tomorrow with my son, that's my idea of a fun day.
                  Auto transmission was working fine. Think I'll just clean it up, change the seal, pan gasket and fluid and reinstall.
                  Don't know much about transmissions, any suggestions there? I'm in the "not broke, don't fix" mode at the moment.

                  Lot's of good info, thanks


                  Dell
                  59 Silver Hawk
                  62 GT Hawk
                  Dell
                  59 Silver Hawk
                  62 GT Hawk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've knurled guides in over a dozen cars over the years without incident and driven them daily.There are always two sides to a issue and if knurling isnt "proper"....so be it.
                    Mono mind in a stereo world

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Bob, maybe both of our machine shop have at least one old fart working there. Mine has "pop's" and he's as old school as they get. He's in his late 80's now, still comes in two or three days a week. Studebaker V8's are modern iron to him. He still has the stuff to pour babbitt bearings. He even knurled the skirts on a set of pistons for me one time on a Commander six, and that was a new one on me.
                      He came through for me on a 31 Commander water pump by welding up a worn shaft, then machining it and he even had the water pump packing and a very old can of water pump grease. When all those guys pass, where will we get water pump grease ?.

                      JDP/Maryland
                      64 R2 GT spent to date
                      $62,439.30
                      63 R2 SuperHawk
                      spent to date $54718.75
                      63 Lark 2 door
                      54 Starlight
                      52 Starliner
                      51 Commander
                      39 Coupe express
                      39 Coupe express (rod)

                      JDP Maryland

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That sounds great Sal, but what about fuel to run that thing? Was that years ago when you could actually afford to put Premium 92 Octane in it?

                        quote:Originally posted by sals54

                        One of the added little bonus options I did on a 259 I rebuilt as per JPs style of rebuild was to mill the heads .125. (yes, that is a full 1/8 inch)
                        StudeRich
                        Studebakers Northwest
                        Ferndale, WA
                        StudeRich
                        Second Generation Stude Driver,
                        Proud '54 Starliner Owner

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The valve seats have never been replaced.
                          I expect the car to driven very little and plan to leave as is.
                          Any advice on unleaded fuel with cast seats?

                          Dell
                          59 Silver Hawk
                          62 GT Hawk
                          Dell
                          59 Silver Hawk
                          62 GT Hawk

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            bob40, et al -

                            Not refuting the fact that knurled guides worked fine for you. And as I stated...done correctly, they can last 40 or so thousand miles.
                            Just wondering if you ever actually pulled a head and measured the stem and guide after 20 or 30 thousand miles? Non concentric seats vs. valves will live a few more miles...they just don't seat very well and most of the time goes undetected untill there is .005" or so clearance between the stem and guide. Then...the seal really goes away and the popping starts and the oil into the chamber starts.

                            Remember...just cause you don't initailly notice things...doesn't mean the last machined clearances are still good.

                            Peace.

                            Mike

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For many of us, 40,000 mile on one Studebaker is a lifetime. If I put 1000 miles a year on one in the 8 month driving season, I'd be 105 when the guides gave out.(Assuming I kept a car for over my normal year or two.

                              JDP/Maryland
                              63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
                              spent to date $54,758.75
                              64 R2 GT (Sid)
                              spent to date $62,439.30
                              63 Lark 2 door
                              52 Starliner
                              51 Commander
                              39 Coupe express
                              39 Coupe express (rod)

                              JDP Maryland

                              Comment

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