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Easy brake question

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  • Brakes: Easy brake question

    Can someone tell me which years Studebaker used self adjusting brakes? Thanks.
    Also, what does self centering do, as opposed to self adjusting?
    "Madness...is the exception in individuals, but the rule in groups" - Nietzsche.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Scott View Post
    Can someone tell me which years Studebaker used self adjusting brakes? Thanks.
    Also, what does self centering do, as opposed to self adjusting?
    Off the top of my head I believe self-adjusting brakes were used from '47 though '53. Later they used a completely different system of self-adjusting brake from '62 through the end except that the rears on disk-braked cars weren't self adjusting.
    Self adjusting and self centering are totally different subjects.
    Paul Johnson, Wild and Wonderful West Virginia.
    '64 Daytona Wagonaire, '64 Avanti R-1, Museum R-4 engine, '72 Gravely Model 430 with Onan engine

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    • #3
      I have a '64 with disc brakes, does anyone know why the rears were not self adjusting?

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, my 66 had a rear axle swap some time in the past and it has a tapered axle with the matching brakes parts, even though it still has the stock disc brakes on the front. Not ideal, but it works. I spoke to a friend of mine this morning and he said that all tapered axle cars to the end had self adjusting brakes. He's seen mine and is sure they are self adjusting. But I'd still like to know for future reference if there was some time in the 50s-60s when tapered axle cars did not have self adjusting brakes. I could have sworn there was a period when Studebaker stopped using self adjusting brakes, but I might be confusing that with the disc brake equipped cars.
        "Madness...is the exception in individuals, but the rule in groups" - Nietzsche.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dickeedee View Post
          I have a '64 with disc brakes, does anyone know why the rears were not self adjusting?
          Because the factory didn't install a self adjusting rear brake system in cars with front disk brakes...
          64 GT Hawk (K7)
          1970 Avanti (R3)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Scott View Post
            Well, my 66 had a rear axle swap some time in the past and it has a tapered axle with the matching brakes parts, even though it still has the stock disc brakes on the front. Not ideal, but it works. I spoke to a friend of mine this morning and he said that all tapered axle cars to the end had self adjusting brakes. He's seen mine and is sure they are self adjusting. But I'd still like to know for future reference if there was some time in the 50s-60s when tapered axle cars did not have self adjusting brakes. I could have sworn there was a period when Studebaker stopped using self adjusting brakes, but I might be confusing that with the disc brake equipped cars.
            As previously stated, all Studebaker disc brake cars did not have self adjusting brakes in the rear. However, they did have tapered axles (at least in 1963-1964). These two items are completly independant of each other.
            Gary L.
            Wappinger, NY

            SDC member since 1968
            Studebaker enthusiast much longer

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by studegary View Post
              As previously stated, all Studebaker disc brake cars did not have self adjusting brakes in the rear. However, they did have tapered axles (at least in 1963-1964). These two items are completly independant of each other.
              That is true. I'll get this straight eventually. I'd still like an answer to first original questions, if possible.
              "Madness...is the exception in individuals, but the rule in groups" - Nietzsche.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Scott View Post
                That is true. I'll get this straight eventually. I'd still like an answer to first original questions, if possible.

                Hi Scott, Post #2 does answer part of your questions. The Star Wheel Adjusted Bendix style Wagner Brakes came out in 1954, so from '54 to '62 they were MANUALLY adjusted, self centering, Self ENERGIZING Very excellent Brakes the design of which was so good it was kept until 1966.

                HOWEVER in 1963 and ON Automatic Adjusters were added, as mentioned it has NOTHING to do with Tapered Axles at all and we are talking 4 wheel DRUM Brakes here, Front Disc. are a whole different animal. But you do seem to have the Drum Brake setup on the Rear of your Disc Brake Car which happens because of the rarity and expense of Rear Drum setups for Front Disc.

                Self centering is really not a big deal, all or Most '60 cars would probably have that, they keep wear as even as possible on Front vs Rear Shoes.

                But Studebaker/Wagner's Self ENERGIZING Brakes are a bit special, that is what that special "Wedge" at the Top Shoe Anchor is all about, it gives you a sort of "Power" Brake because when the Front Shoe (Short Lining) touches the Drum it applies the Primary Shoe (Rear Long Lining) automatically to help you with the pressure to apply and stop required making for one EXCELLENT Brake!

                I believe I may actually Know your Car! A '66 Cruiser that belonged to a Coast Guard Serviceman in Calif. who lost his complete Flanged Axle, Drum, Wheel, Tire and all.
                Bill Oliver and I, at his old Shop (Studebaker Parts and Service in Anaheim, CA sold him the Whole Rear Axle (44) with Standard V8 Tapered Axles with Drum Brakes and HE installed the "Wedge" backwards to illuminate the Self Energizing Action for the Front Discs to work without Rear LOCKUP.

                I have referenced this backwards Wedge solution here before for adding Front Discs. NO need for a POC, Equalizer/Proportioning Valve.

                My advice; if you have Non-Automatic adjusted Brakes, leave it ALONE, adjust them 10 clicks from locked as needed/when needed and forget it! The Auto's are a PITA!

                I hope this Brake info is helpful to all those OTHERS who post frequently having no clue how all this works, it should be a "Sticky".
                StudeRich
                Second Generation Stude Driver,
                Proud '54 Starliner Owner

                Comment


                • #9
                  I find it amazing that with all the hullabaloo over safety, that the Government allows something as critical to safety as an automobile's brake system to have steel brake lines, which are subject to corrosion. The garage that maintains my every day cars seems to averages at least one brake line replacement a week. Yes I live in NY state where they believe in not training drivers how to drive in the snow; just use more salt.
                  Ron

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rstrasser View Post
                    I find it amazing that with all the hullabaloo over safety, that the Government allows something as critical to safety as an automobile's brake system to have steel brake lines, which are subject to corrosion. The garage that maintains my every day cars seems to averages at least one brake line replacement a week. Yes I live in NY state where they believe in not training drivers how to drive in the snow; just use more salt.
                    Ron
                    So TRUE Ron, but totally unrelated and deserves it's own String.
                    StudeRich
                    Second Generation Stude Driver,
                    Proud '54 Starliner Owner

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by StudeRich View Post

                      Hi Scott, Post #2 does answer part of your questions. The Star Wheel Adjusted Bendix style Wagner Brakes came out in 1954, so from '54 to '62 they were MANUALLY adjusted, self centering, Self ENERGIZING Very excellent Brakes the design of which was so good it was kept until 1966.

                      HOWEVER in 1963 and ON Automatic Adjusters were added, as mentioned it has NOTHING to do with Tapered Axles at all and we are talking 4 wheel DRUM Brakes here, Front Disc. are a whole different animal. But you do seem to have the Drum Brake setup on the Rear of your Disc Brake Car which happens because of the rarity and expense of Rear Drum setups for Front Disc.

                      Self centering is really not a big deal, all or Most '60 cars would probably have that, they keep wear as even as possible on Front vs Rear Shoes.

                      But Studebaker/Wagner's Self ENERGIZING Brakes are a bit special, that is what that special "Wedge" at the Top Shoe Anchor is all about, it gives you a sort of "Power" Brake because when the Front Shoe (Short Lining) touches the Drum it applies the Primary Shoe (Rear Long Lining) automatically to help you with the pressure to apply and stop required making for one EXCELLENT Brake!

                      I believe I may actually Know your Car! A '66 Cruiser that belonged to a Coast Guard Serviceman in Calif. who lost his complete Flanged Axle, Drum, Wheel, Tire and all.
                      Bill Oliver and I, at his old Shop (Studebaker Parts and Service in Anaheim, CA sold him the Whole Rear Axle (44) with Standard V8 Tapered Axles with Drum Brakes and HE installed the "Wedge" backwards to illuminate the Self Energizing Action for the Front Discs to work without Rear LOCKUP.

                      I have referenced this backwards Wedge solution here before for adding Front Discs. NO need for a POC, Equalizer/Proportioning Valve.

                      My advice; if you have Non-Automatic adjusted Brakes, leave it ALONE, adjust them 10 clicks from locked as needed/when needed and forget it! The Auto's are a PITA!

                      I hope this Brake info is helpful to all those OTHERS who post frequently having no clue how all this works, it should be a "Sticky".
                      Rich,
                      This probably is the car you're thinking about. I bought in Vancouver, WA, but it's from the Sacramento area. It's Yellowknife gold, automatic (with second gear not working), with the whole flanged axle and brake assembly. When you wrote illuminate, I think you meant eliminate. This morning I took the car to a parking lot and backed it up for a while and stepped on the brakes now and then to adjust them if they are self adjusting. I noticed no difference in pedal height after that, though. I'm trying to bring up the pedal a little. I installed the dual master cylinder set up from Turner, but it was locking up because the actuator rod was too long (even at its shortest). I had it shortened 1/4 inch and I've fixed the locking up, but I think I only have a very little left to adjust out before it will start locking up again (from the MC not fully disengaging). So I'm looking at other ways to bring the pedal a little farther from the floor. The pedal adjustment has helped, but it's max'ed out as well. The brakes DO work, though, thank goodness.

                      I'd love more history on this car if you have it. It was in a collision in the front right, apparently and there was repair work to the cowl. The speedometer is from a 63 (got a 64-66 you'd trade with me?). Gas gauge and ammeter don't work and there is an aftermarket temp gauge under the dash that does work.

                      How does a guy "lose" his flanged axle and all?
                      "Madness...is the exception in individuals, but the rule in groups" - Nietzsche.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rstrasser View Post
                        I find it amazing that with all the hullabaloo over safety, that the Government allows something as critical to safety as an automobile's brake system to have steel brake lines, which are subject to corrosion. The garage that maintains my every day cars seems to averages at least one brake line replacement a week. Yes I live in NY state where they believe in not training drivers how to drive in the snow; just use more salt.
                        Ron
                        Ron,
                        Once mechanical cable brakes were replaced by hydraulics, those steel lines were the cat's meow! Back then, of course, roads were not salted in winter and cars never saw the kind of mileage we do today. You may also note that most manuals of the time recommend flushing and refilling brake fluid periodically. Hygroscopic (DOT 3) fluid will, over time, assimilate sufficient moisture to rust lines from the inside out. That standard maintenance, as well as observable inspection of steel line condition has provided reliable service for many years.
                        Upon restoration I have replaced a number of those lines with stainless. Today, especially very recently, we have even better components. New copper/nickle alloy lines (used for years in Volvos) portend to be the ultimate---UNTIL SOMETHING BETTER!
                        "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

                        Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
                        Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
                        sigpic'33 Rockne 10, '51 Commander Starlight, '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Scott; I do not believe that a Flanged axle is "Locked in" by the Bearing and Backing plate like a Tapered one is, so on a curve the whole works flew out of the Car causing some damage to the Right Rear Wheel Well.
                          This is how you "Lose" an axle. So he then dropped the whole Housing and all and scrapped it.

                          I am sorry but it was back in about 1992 so that is all I remember about that Car.
                          I do know that this young Man drove it hard and long on many trips back and forth to a base a good distance away.

                          Of course I do not remember, but I believe you have a '62 or earlier Manual adjusting brake setup. You can tell by the fine tooth star wheel used on Auto. Adj. or the course Tooth ones on Manuals.
                          It is very hard to get a Brake spoon into those fine teeth and turn them, as they were not intended to be manually adjusted.
                          StudeRich
                          Second Generation Stude Driver,
                          Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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