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R1 Fuel Filter Bowl Empties on Engine Start-up ???

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  • Engine: R1 Fuel Filter Bowl Empties on Engine Start-up ???

    While having a few (not so smart) set-backs on starting my R1 Lark build, I finally have the rebuilt engine started after a few hours over a few days. My first problem was a bad battery. Then I thought my problem was my old carburetor not atomizing the fuel, so I rebuilt a 3506A carburetor. The engine still would not fire. Then I thought I might have the distributor 180 degrees out of phase. While confirming that was not the problem I noticed the distributor rotor turning counter-clockwise. What made me think the distributor turned clockwise it's beyond me. That was my dummy moment and quickly fixed the firing order. The engine fired up after that quickly but after running for 10 minutes I seem to have a problem getting fuel up to the filter bowl. When I first tried to start the engine a few days ago I noticed fuel gushing into the filter bowl. Then I could not get fuel up to the filter bowl. During my frustration stages of starting this engine I blew air through the fuel line back to the tank, thinking something is blocking the fuel line. I then tried to turn the engine over again and the pump would not prime, I actually had to suck fuel in to pump then it seemed to flow pretty good into the filter bowl from turning the engine over. Conclusion - The rebuilt R1 fuel pump seems to work well. (Days ago)

    Where it stands right now after running the engine for about 10 minutes is that the fuel filter bowl sucks almost dry. I am thinking a possible tear in the pump diaphram, air leaking into the pump from the hose connecting to the pump or a loose fitting.

    I really don't want to pull the fuel pump yet,......

    Anyone have this happen? What was your problem?


    Allen
    Last edited by studebaker-R2-4-me; 02-13-2014, 01:38 PM.
    1964 GT Hawk
    PSMCDR 2014
    Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
    PSMCDR 2013
    Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

    Victoria, Canada

  • #2
    Allen, have you cleaned out the gas tank? Dan

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ivorydan View Post
      Allen, have you cleaned out the gas tank? Dan

      Thanks for the thought but not yet, it is on my list to drop it to install a return line into the tank. When I last drove this car was on a trip to the eastern seaboard right down to Hatteras Island without fuel issues, warn out engine and transmisson issues but not fuel. I don't believe I have issues with the tank since I replaced the fuel sender a few years ago and the tank was spotless clean.

      I am also thinking that the gas tank vent could be plugged. Looking for other ideas before I start ripping things apart.


      Allen
      1964 GT Hawk
      PSMCDR 2014
      Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
      PSMCDR 2013
      Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

      Victoria, Canada

      Comment


      • #4
        My '61 Hawk was doing the same thing last spring. I took off the gas cap and it worked fine. Found out that the gasket on the fuel level unit was bad and the gas tank vented thru there. When I sealed that, the problem popped-up. New gas cap fixed it.= Jim

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by jrlemke View Post
          My '61 Hawk was doing the same thing last spring. I took off the gas cap and it worked fine. Found out that the gasket on the fuel level unit was bad and the gas tank vented thru there. When I sealed that, the problem popped-up. New gas cap fixed it.= Jim
          Good suggestion Jim. I actually have a "new" factory chromed gas cap on the car that is extremely tight, almost too tight. I will pull the cap and start the engine up again and see what happens. Not to sure how the tank is vent but I am going to start there.

          Allen
          1964 GT Hawk
          PSMCDR 2014
          Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
          PSMCDR 2013
          Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

          Victoria, Canada

          Comment


          • #6
            On a '62 to '66 Lark or Lark Type, it does not matter if the Cap seals too well, that is what it is supposed to do.
            There is a vent pipe from the filler neck that dead ends in the left floor reinforcement box to the atmosphere. It COULD be plugged.

            My guess is the one-way valves in the Fuel Pump are not sealing or functioning correctly. Did you rebuild the R1 Carter Pump? The valves are a problem in the rebuild "Kits" they are not as good as the originals and are in fact Brake Lining Rivets.
            StudeRich
            Second Generation Stude Driver,
            Proud '54 Starliner Owner

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
              On a '62 to '66 Lark or Lark Type, it does not matter if the Cap seals too well, that is what it is supposed to do.
              There is a vent pipe from the filler neck that dead ends in the left floor reinforcement box to the atmosphere. It COULD be plugged.

              My guess is the one-way valves in the Fuel Pump are not sealing or functioning correctly. Did you rebuild the R1 Carter Pump? The valves are a problem in the rebuild "Kits" they are not as good as the originals and are in fact Brake Lining Rivets.
              Yes Rich, I did rebuild it about a year ago from a vendor's kit. It got gas through it this last week for the first time. I am now looking for a blow up of a Carter R1 pump and associated parts.

              Just watched a video of a Carter pump. I did change all the check valves in the pump. What do you mean they are Brake lining rivets?


              Allen
              Last edited by studebaker-R2-4-me; 02-13-2014, 04:47 PM.
              1964 GT Hawk
              PSMCDR 2014
              Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
              PSMCDR 2013
              Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

              Victoria, Canada

              Comment


              • #8
                I found this picture on the internet:



                I see what you mean of brake lining rivets in the above picture. The kit I purchased from Phil Harris did not have these as check valves.



                This kit looks more like it. with the 3 check valve pictured.

                Allen
                1964 GT Hawk
                PSMCDR 2014
                Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
                PSMCDR 2013
                Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

                Victoria, Canada

                Comment


                • #9
                  The NOS Studebaker Kits did have original Carter Parts in them, but most are long gone. The only ones I know of that are available is Then and Now Automotive/The Cellar, where all of ours come from now.

                  Those Brass Rivets were the best they could come up with, since the new Carter Co. Division of Federal Mogul, will not allow their Patented Valves to be reproduced, funny thing is they are not interested in selling Kits or Parts and will not.

                  I notice that the 1st. Pic shows a loose Diaphragm, ours are assembled.

                  I am not able to open the 2nd. Pic.
                  Last edited by StudeRich; 02-13-2014, 10:03 PM.
                  StudeRich
                  Second Generation Stude Driver,
                  Proud '54 Starliner Owner

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think a volume test and a pressure test, and a residual pressure at the carb fitting would answer a few important questions about how the pump, and fuel system including filters, fuel line and tank is working. I would not touch a fuel pump until I have done a pressure and delivery test.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I just had 3 pumps done up by a reputable vendor. 2 AC's and 1 Carter. One AC is working with 130 miles use and one AC has a knocking sound and the Carter leaked oil. I wish someone was capable of a successful rebuild that would last as long as an original pump. I've got 300.00 invested in one working and 2 duds. cheers jimmijim
                      sigpicAnything worth doing deserves your best shot. Do it right the first time. When you're done you will know it. { I'm just the guy who thinks he knows everything, my buddy is the guy who knows everything.} cheers jimmijim*****SDC***** member

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        AC's Fuel Pumps for a Studebaker V8? Those are very old, non-OEM replacement Pumps and the original AC design that Airtex copied, and always did leak Oil and were never very good. The Same design Airtex, just got worse.

                        A properly rebuilt Carter with a built-in Filter is still the way to go.
                        StudeRich
                        Second Generation Stude Driver,
                        Proud '54 Starliner Owner

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          After spending the day out in the shop, I think I have this one solved. This old 259 that I converted to a Great sounding R1 289 has got all the components of a R1 build including the R1 fuel pump and fuel filter. What I have not done yet is tie in the fuel return line to the gas tank. I've run the line back to the tank and simply capped it off until I have the cash to drop the tank and have the return line installed in the tank. Everytime I crack the return line connection at the filter the fuel bowl fills and quickly. So now I have come up with the cash to have the tank cleaned, the inlet installed and then treat lined.

                          I have this picture of a Lark R series tank showing the inlet complements of Joseph Barrier

                          Click image for larger version

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                          Allen
                          1964 GT Hawk
                          PSMCDR 2014
                          Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
                          PSMCDR 2013
                          Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

                          Victoria, Canada

                          Comment

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