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  • Fuel System: Fuel boiling problem

    Purchased a 54 Starlight in April with an R1 with an AFB carb. Noticed that sometimes I would have to crank the engine for an extended length of time before starting because it had no fuel. The former owner thought he had a carb problem so he had purchased an Edlebock which he gave me. My wife stated a couple of times she could smell gas in the garage. I put 60 miles on it the 4th of July and parked it in the garage when it was warm. The next morning I could smell what I thought was gas. There are no signs of leakage any where and I am sure the gas is boiling. See TW May 2013 Cooperator "Modern Fuel Considerations". The engine does not have a heat riser on the exhaust. Am considering blocking the intake crossover and/or running a fuel return line to fix the problem. However; I am concerned about the way the fuel line is routed across the engine. See the attached pic. The line comes up from the pump, crosses the engine infront of the thermast housing where it is secured to 2 of the housing bolts. It then turns toward the back then bends again crossing in front of the carb where the filter is located, then routes back toward the carb on the left side.
    Could the fuel line routing contribute to the problem?
    Thanks in advance.
    Click image for larger version

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    Studebro2
    54 Starlight
    Lynnwood, WA

  • #2
    Whoever made the line sure did a neat job but if I'm looking at the picture right, it appears to go across the front of the carb, down the drivers side & around the back. Is that right?? R-1 engines had the line come up from the pump, behind the power steering pump as your does, then go on an angle across to the right (passengers) side of the carburetor. The only difference is on the original AFB carbs, the inlet was facing the front whereas the Edlebrock carb faces the right fender. Instead of mounting the line on the thermostat housing, I would remove that & bend the line across the front, splice in the line for a fuel filter, & then bend a new line directly into the carb. All that line may be contributing to vapor lock, but it isn't necessary.
    59 Lark wagon, now V-8, H.D. auto!
    60 Lark convertible V-8 auto
    61 Champ 1/2 ton 4 speed
    62 Champ 3/4 ton 5 speed o/drive
    62 Champ 3/4 ton auto
    62 Daytona convertible V-8 4 speed & 62 Cruiser, auto.
    63 G.T. Hawk R-2,4 speed
    63 Avanti (2) R-1 auto
    64 Zip Van
    66 Daytona Sport Sedan(327)V-8 4 speed
    66 Cruiser V-8 auto

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    • #3
      I dunno if the complexity of the line is contributing to the vapor lock, I have lines on the '55 and the '64 Commander far worse than that. Of course, those don't have a mechanical pump anymore, they are full blown electric pump systems. However, I think what they did was, route the line so they could see the fuel filter, in which there is nothing wrong with that. Fuel and Vacuum lines shouldn't care how they're routed, as long as they are sealed, and aren't kinked, bent, or near a source of flame. I have a couple that run clear to the back of the '55 to run the charcoal canister setup by the fuel cell. But, if someone wants to simplify the line, they could just run it directly down the passenger side of the carb and route it to the inlet back there, and have the fuel filter mounted on the passenger side of the carb and inline with the line going to the inlet, instead of crisscrossing in front of the carb.
      1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
      1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
      1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
      1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

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      • #4
        I would expect vapor lock on these old engines with modern fuel. I'd put an electric booster near the tank and push it to the carb. It can be put on a switch or wired to come on with the key.
        Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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        • #5
          I don't think you are answering his question. He is talking about boiling after he shuts the engine off. Not vapor locking while driving.

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          • #6
            The electric pump will solve that as well.
            Diesel loving, autocrossing, Coupe express loving, Grandpa Architect.

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            • #7
              You are experiencing what most of us experience these days and that is (1) evaporation of the fuel in the carburetor bowl after sitting a few days and (2)fuel boil over after engine shut down and hot soak. Not much can be done about it as your fuel system is open to the atmosphere, unlike todays modern fuel injected systems. All my cars do it, I leave the garage door open for a while until the engine cools down.
              Frank van Doorn
              Omaha, Ne.
              1962 GT Hawk 289 4 speed
              1941 Champion streetrod, R-2 Powered, GM 200-4R trans.
              1952 V-8 232 Commander State "Starliner" hardtop OD

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              • #8
                Originally posted by 41 Frank View Post
                You are experiencing what most of us experience these days..
                I hear that..

                In other post on this subject, it helps to blank off the exhaust crossover to lower the temperature of the manifold and use a phenolic spacer if your hood space allows for it.

                Also I do not have the line clamped to any part of the engine. I noticed you have it clamped to the thermostat housing.. A potential conductive heat transfer, as apposed to convection, which has a higher rate of entropy..



                If you upgrade to the R1 pump, it has a bigger diaphragm and it seems to really suck the fuel from the tank quicker and more volume than the std one.

                The filter you have, do you know what micron filter it is? If too high micron filtration it sometimes can be restrictive and slow the fuel flow down quite a bit.

                To eliminate the smell in the garage I went the Green rout.. I put a charcoal evap canister and plumbed it for it. I added a vent to the tank (61 had vented caps). On engine start up a solenoid is triggers and vacuum sucks on the evap for 5 seconds to keep it dry. No smell when the garage is 105F!


                Originally posted by studebro2 View Post
                Purchased a 54 Starlight in April with an R1 with an AFB carb. Noticed that sometimes I would have to crank the engine for an extended length of time before starting because it had no fuel.
                [ATTACH=CONFIG]25610[/ATTACH]
                I'm assuming you have a Carter AFB and not the Edelbrock. I have a top for the AFB that comes out the front if you want to clean up the snaking of your fuel line and potential problem as the throttle linkage can catch on your fuel line..
                Last edited by SScopelli; 07-15-2013, 03:10 PM.

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                • #9
                  That is one super sweet looking radiator! It actually APPEARS to have one of the tubes (of the core) on the corner and one on the side and a three or four Row all Aluminum Core in a original '60 Lark Brass Tank? Very nice! Can you explain what it REALLY is please?
                  I may have missed a post about it or forgot.
                  Last edited by StudeRich; 07-15-2013, 10:54 PM.
                  StudeRich
                  Second Generation Stude Driver,
                  Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SScopelli View Post




                    ..
                    Rut- Roe!! Don't let the battery hold down police see this!! Seriously though, what a beautiful engine compartment. I just don't see what Rich sees in the "tube"....overflow tube? I only see the one by the radiator cap.
                    59 Lark wagon, now V-8, H.D. auto!
                    60 Lark convertible V-8 auto
                    61 Champ 1/2 ton 4 speed
                    62 Champ 3/4 ton 5 speed o/drive
                    62 Champ 3/4 ton auto
                    62 Daytona convertible V-8 4 speed & 62 Cruiser, auto.
                    63 G.T. Hawk R-2,4 speed
                    63 Avanti (2) R-1 auto
                    64 Zip Van
                    66 Daytona Sport Sedan(327)V-8 4 speed
                    66 Cruiser V-8 auto

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Looking at the pix by Scopelli, it appears this motor has never been fired up, or least never brought up to operating temperature. Heck, it looks like the battery terminals have never been tightened down.

                      I too, have read recommendations be several here, to block off the heat riser tunnel, however, I doubt many have actually tried it. I did, and discovered the carb takes longer to warm up, so the choke (no matter if electric of heated) opens up way to early, even if adjusted to max rich setting. So what you wind up with is a cold running engine for the first 15 minutes or so (spitting & sputtering), long after the choke has opened up. The only choke feasible to run with a blocked off heat riser, is a manual type so you can leave it partially on till the carb warms up.

                      However, after 10-20 miles in hot weather, the carb will eventually warm up to same as the engine temp, and when shut down for 15-30 minutes later, it will again have the same hot re-start problems most of us are all too familiar with.

                      So, though blocking off the heat riser tunnel sounds like a good idea, it does not actually work well. Nor does it solve hot re-start problems, unless only driven for short time/distance.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        First,

                        Thank you for the great compliments and critique, she is a work in progress, but an August girl for sure!

                        This was a nut and bolt restoration on a 61 Convertible. I figured this car has been around for 52 years, and now it should last another 75..

                        You may also notice the cowl tag is not painted. I thought it looked great in bare metal forum. The 63 Wiper motor, (now why would he do that?) The Carb is my own secret sauce.. And that is basically an R1+ engine on a replacement block.

                        Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
                        That is one super sweet looking radiator! It actually APPEARS to have one of the tubes (of the core) on the corner and one on the side and a three or four Row all Aluminum Core in a original '60 Lark Brass Tank? Very nice! Can you explain what it REALLY is please?
                        I may have missed a post about it or forgot.
                        No problem.. I had posted a pic of it before..

                        Click image for larger version

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                        It is from Cool Craft Radiators in LA.. So it flows in the top and then goes back up, then down and out the bottom pipe... So the water stays in the radiator longer and really does cool it down.

                        They call it a high-efficiency 3 core element. I do believe it is all Copper as these guys explain, nothing cools like copper!
                        They have a comparison and show 11 deg cooling difference over aluminum. Their take on it was, Detroit went aluminum to save on shipping weight. I agree on nothing cools like copper.

                        It was pricey to have done, $560.00..

                        Originally posted by JoeHall View Post
                        Looking at the pix by Scopelli, it appears this motor has never been fired up, or least never brought up to operating temperature. Heck, it looks like the battery terminals have never been tightened down.
                        Oh, its been at Opp temp several times.. Turn up the volume!

                        http://s1286.photobucket.com/user/R2...7db76.mp4.html

                        Sorry for the poor video quality.. I'll get my son to use his HD camera instead of my Cell phone..

                        Ceramic paint helps keep it looking great, run after run..



                        A cleaning solvent will clean up that toning from a oil leak..

                        Originally posted by JoeHall View Post
                        I too, have read recommendations be several here, to block off the heat riser tunnel, however, I doubt many have actually tried it. I did, and discovered the carb takes longer to warm up, so the choke (no matter if electric of heated) opens up way to early, even if adjusted to max rich setting. So what you wind up with is a cold running engine for the first 15 minutes or so (spitting & sputtering), long after the choke has opened up. The only choke feasible to run with a blocked off heat riser, is a manual type so you can leave it partially on till the carb warms up.

                        However, after 10-20 miles in hot weather, the carb will eventually warm up to same as the engine temp, and when shut down for 15-30 minutes later, it will again have the same hot re-start problems most of us are all too familiar with.

                        So, though blocking off the heat riser tunnel sounds like a good idea, it does not actually work well. Nor does it solve hot re-start problems, unless only driven for short time/distance.
                        All I can tell you on blocking it off and spacer is, I can get in it 15 min later or the next day, and it fires up like it were a 2002 Sequoia.. And I live in Phoenix, where a cooling trend is below 100! It does help and the performance I feel is better..

                        Yes, the Battery is not clamped down, but that PS pump has to be good for something else! Its a work in progress so I take off the cables when not in use..

                        It is Scary fast!

                        I guess I will start a thread on the 61 Phantom and see what people think of it..
                        Last edited by SScopelli; 07-17-2013, 01:26 PM.

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                        • #13
                          The last Stude' radiator I had recored (about four years ago) cost a tad over $500 - You have a great set-up at about the same cost.
                          Paul TK

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                          • #14
                            That radiator is called a triple pass. I had a double pass, aluminum one custom made once for a 56J, but it flowed horizontally, and had side tanks. It was basically two small radiators, instead of one large one. It cooled better than an OEM 3-row, but not as good as a 5-row I'd had made earlier.

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                            • #15
                              My radiator went 3 core this spring for $500.

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