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What frame would you use?

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  • What frame would you use?

    Theoretically- If you were building a 62 Daytona 2 dr. HT with Skytop, 289 4-spd. TT, and wanted to make sure it was strong enough to take possible hard use by a has-been race car driver who might want to light up the tires occasionally, and knew someone who had several Western frames to choose from, which would be your ideal frame? X-frame?

    Theoretically speaking, of course; merely for discussion purposes......

    Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
    Parish, central NY 13131
    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1


  • #2
    Theoretically of course, for discussion purposes only ,from one has been race car driver to another, oops For an occasional lighting up of the tires I see no reason to go to an x-member frame Bams. More weight to haul around for no good reason, just my opinion. An x-member might help a little on a roundy round application but not anything like a triangulated roll cage.
    Frank van Doorn
    Omaha, Ne.
    1962 GT Hawk 289 4 speed
    1941 Champion streetrod, R-2 Powered, GM 200-4R trans.
    1952 V-8 232 Commander State "Starliner" hardtop OD

    Comment


    • #3
      One question that might come up- being a hardtop with a Skytop, would the X help to make that body any more rigid? If you're starting with a clean slate, these are the kinds of questions that can be considered...

      Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
      Parish, central NY 13131
      http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

      Comment


      • #4
        Bob, if the frame is solid, a regular frame should be fine. I agree with Frank that all that 'X' member will do is add weight to haul around.

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Tom - Valrico, FL

        1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $1794.98)

        Tom - Bradenton, FL

        1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
        1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

        Comment


        • #5
          In addition Bams the cars that have x-frames are harder to work on under the car, like pulling transmissions etc, I have one, I know.
          Frank van Doorn
          Omaha, Ne.
          1962 GT Hawk 289 4 speed
          1941 Champion streetrod, R-2 Powered, GM 200-4R trans.
          1952 V-8 232 Commander State "Starliner" hardtop OD

          Comment


          • #6
            I would be curious to see the weight of the x-member compared with the weight of a well built roll cage. I bet it would be close, the roll cage would raise the center of gravity but would do a lot more to stiffen the car and would make it safer too. I haven't removed one but that x-member looks thick and heavy.

            Is this the car I was looking at at SB that Kent had?

            If you did go the cage route, I'd be tempted to try removing the torque boxes just to remove a potential rust location. I don't know if that would be a *good* idea, but it's an idea

            nate

            --
            55 Commander Starlight
            http://members.cox.net/njnagel
            --
            55 Commander Starlight
            http://members.cox.net/njnagel

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes, Nate, Kent bought this at SB. The car is WAY beyond fixing; in fact it's the rustiest running Stude I've ever seen![:0]

              I'm looking for a clean, solid 2 dr. HT body to graft the Skytop onto. I'm experienced in this stuff, so not too big a deal for me. Also has nice buckets/console cores, and all of the glass, bumpers, and most of the stainless is good; plus tons of other stuff!

              I'm thinking, when I get a solid, rust-free car, it will still likely need a front-end rebuild, plus mounts and bushings... so, if there's a preferable frame, now's the time- seeing that Bob Peterson's got a bunch of CA frames, and will be coming to Reedsville...

              My goal is a solid, smooth touring car that can take getting tossed around a little; and I want it to be all Stude.

              So, is it true that 6 cyl. frames are weaker? And that any of them have weak areas prone to cracking even if rust-free?

              Still in the early planning stages; as Walt Disney would call it, the "Blue Sky" stage (AKA Blank Sheet of Paper stage)...

              Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
              Parish, central NY 13131
              http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

              Comment


              • #8
                Also- no interest in a cage in the car. I want it to look factory-stock, down to the hubcaps[8D]

                Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
                Parish, central NY 13131
                http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well Bob; the choices look clear then, you want one of his '62 HT's OR... you could use a '62 Convertible to get the more rigid no-rollbar "X" member frame!

                  If it's a '62 or newer it does not matter 6 or 8 Cyl. they are all 11 gauge except the 2dr. Sedans (post) that model is the one you need to watch out for.

                  Since it was the lightest model, the engineers figured it needed only a thin frame, but they usually figured it's lifetime to be around 7 years without salt rusting! Little did they know we'd be still messing with em 49 years later![:0]

                  If it were me, I would use the convertible frame. I figure, you only do a new Tranny and Exhaust once, and you're done. And yes they are BOTH more difficult & exhaust costs a bit more on Convertibles, Wagonaires and Avantis because of the "X", but one guy's opinion is... it's worth it! [^]

                  StudeRich
                  Studebakers Northwest
                  Ferndale, WA
                  StudeRich
                  Second Generation Stude Driver,
                  Proud '54 Starliner Owner

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Agreed, if you are going to the trouble of changing frames, the Avanti/convertible is the one to use. The extra weight is low and not a real penalty when compared to the extra strength.

                    FWIW, I always reinforce the upper A-arm mount area and the area inside area where the front crossmember attaches to the frame. These were subjects for Studebaker factory Technical Bulletins back in 1956, as I remember.

                    thnx, jv.

                    PackardV8
                    PackardV8

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm thinking that a '62 frame already had reinforcement plates under the holes for the upper inner shaft mounts from the factory. I'm well aware of the failure you're trying to avoid though, I've got some pics on my computer at home of what happens when you don't reinforce these. I was fortunate to find a good mobile welder who was able to come out and rebuild the crossmember of my 56J...

                      nate

                      --
                      55 Commander Starlight
                      http://members.cox.net/njnagel
                      --
                      55 Commander Starlight
                      http://members.cox.net/njnagel

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        quote:Originally posted by bams50
                        Yes, Nate, Kent bought this at SB. The car is WAY beyond fixing; in fact it's the rustiest running Stude I've ever seen![:0]
                        LOL, bob you sould see the 62 Lark 4dr an old guy gave me in SB after seeing me drive my 61 cruiser around town. Believe it or not, he still had current Indiana plates on it and drove it to coffee shop every week. The guy was like 85 years old ans had worked at Studebaker back in the day.

                        I wasn't too picky since the guy outright gave me the car, but jeeze, even though the thing ran and drove and everything worked, my God, the body was so gone the rear door pillars flapped in the wind, there was two chuncks of 4X4 lumber to hold the seat from falling through. I actually drove the thing from South Bend to a relitives farm 12 miles away right over the border in Michigan. Ran and drove nice (original 61k mile car), but when I later loaded and chained it on my trailer to bring it home the rear axle pulled off the frame it was so rotten when I tried to chain it down on the trailer.

                        For a New York Guy, your'e pretty fortunate if that skytop is the rustiest Stude you've ever seen....Have somebody forward you some pictures of Lee DeLaBarre's two-piece lark.

                        Kent

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Why not do one better? Instead of robbing a convertible or Avanti of
                          its X-member - take the dimensions, and have one made out of 6061 or
                          7075 aircraft grade structural aluminum. It will be as strong as you
                          design it, and be 1/3 the weight. Add stiffening braces to the area
                          between the spring perches and the a-piller crossmember.

                          Tom

                          '63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires
                          '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                          Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                          http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                          I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've seen Studes rustier than the Skytop, but not running and driving, Kent. But that 62 sounds like it's got this one beat[:0]

                            Tom- Your suggestion has merit- IF I want to go that far.

                            When I find the right shell for the project (rust-free) it will likely have a rust-free frame as well. The reason I was thinking about a different frame was for two reasons:

                            1. I could get to work on the frame and running gear and have it close to done before I even find a body- including some reinforcing others have recommended

                            2. Bob Peterson has a big pile of frames, and he'll bring some to Reedsville in Nov. if wanted

                            My experience thus far with Stude frames is, they don't take much to get started rusting. They start swelling and corroding between the bottom plate and the rest of the rail easier than any frame I've ever worked with. When I got under my 57 Provincial the first time, I was impressed by 2 things: how clean and rust-free the frame is, and how weak and flimsy they are compared to most anything else!

                            I've been looking for info about Skytops. One member here told me that even though his Skytop was professionally restored with any rust cut out and new metal welded in, when he slams the door the "quarter panels still shake noticably"... so anything I can do in the planning stage to mitigate that would be a good idea.

                            I can see how the x-member would make things like trans. and exhaust a real PITA; I guess the question is if it will help body rigidity; that's what will have to be decided.

                            Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
                            Parish, central NY 13131
                            http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes, it will, Studebaker used it on the Convertibles (no roof) on the
                              Wagonaire (sliding roof), and the Avanti (fiberglass roof). It will
                              make a difference, but the added weight is the drawback. As mentioned
                              it IS low, but its still weight, so regardless it will effect how the
                              car handles. If you have the extra HP to move the extra weight, and
                              you have the suspension control to back it up, its not going to be a
                              real disadvantage. Look at how well the 4200 pound Impala SS does in
                              the slalom, it will beat a 2002 Nissan Maxima SE through the cones. I
                              would suggest going with a 65-66 Lark 2 door sedan. Your other post
                              on the Studebaker V8 makes it clear that a GM engine might be more up
                              your alley. Imagine a 65 Lark with an all aluminum big block. That is
                              going to be close to 50/50 weight distribution, and beef it up with an
                              aluminum X-member, T-bows sway bars, 4 wheel discs, some 50 to 40
                              series tires and basic roll cage. Add some Bilstein shocks, the quick
                              ratio power steering arms, and such and go play.

                              Tom

                              quote:Originally posted by bams50
                              I can see how the x-member would make things like trans. and exhaust a real PITA; I guess the question is if it will help body rigidity; that's what will have to be decided.
                              '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                              Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                              http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                              I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                              Comment

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