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Size socket needed to turn crankshaft on 51 Champion?

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  • Engine: Size socket needed to turn crankshaft on 51 Champion?

    Good morning, all. I think I finally figured out my ignition timing issue on my 51 Champion, but
    I want to be able to turn the engine over by hand using the nut at the balancer on the front to
    line up the IGN mark to the pointer, then set the distributor so the points just begin to open.

    What size socket is needed to turn it? I know it's larger than a 1 1/4 inch.

    Thanks,
    Clarence

  • #2
    It's 1 1/2" but it may not go on the bolt if you don't first remember to "unfold" the locking tab or ear of the french lock.
    Bez Auto Alchemy
    573-318-8948
    http://bezautoalchemy.com


    "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks, Bez. Much appreciated.

      Comment


      • #4
        1 1/2 socket

        Originally posted by cbonner757 View Post
        Good morning, all. I think I finally figured out my ignition timing issue on my 51 Champion, but
        I want to be able to turn the engine over by hand using the nut at the balancer on the front to
        line up the IGN mark to the pointer, then set the distributor so the points just begin to open.

        What size socket is needed to turn it? I know it's larger than a 1 1/4 inch.

        Thanks,
        Clarence
        Just today I was doing the same thing I bought a 1 1/2" socket but it was 3/4" drive so had to buy a 3/4 - 1/2 adaptor. I also bought a Ford clutch fan spanner that is 36mm, that is just a little under 1 1/2" but a fiew strokes with a file and it fit (it is good soft steel).

        There is quite limited space so I removed the fan for easier access, you can also get at it from underneath. I used the static method by attaching a wire to the distributor then to the base of a 6 volt light with the contact base of the light bulb to gnd. To make this hands free I soldered a wire to the light bulb contact with an aligator clip on the other end to gnd. To save a little bit of turning remove #1 plug turn the engine over with the starter and your thumb in the hole just as you feel the puff stop and chect your spot it should be real close. To get it right on, turn by hand until the light comes on that is the moment the points close and the circuit is complete. With the secure tab bent over the socket will fit but just barley, I found the open end spanner a little more effective. Happy timing Dave

        Comment


        • #5
          I can usually turn my 51 Champion over by grabbing and turning the fan blade.
          RadioRoy, specializing in AM/FM conversions with auxiliary inputs for iPod/satellite/CD player. In the old car radio business since 1985.

          17A-S2 - 50 Commander convertible
          10G-C1 - 51 Champion starlight coupe
          10G-Q4 - 51 Champion business coupe
          4H-K5 - 53 Commander starliner hardtop
          5H-D5 - 54 Commander Conestoga wagon
          56B-D4 - 56 Commander station wagon
          60V-L6 - 60 Lark convertible

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks, Roy. I do that when it's a short distance, but I needed to pull a longer distance around to reach the mark. I'm going to try Altair's static method, if I can.
            Much appreciate.
            Clarence

            Comment


            • #7
              Hey, I see you do radio stuff. I've been restoring tube AM/FM/SW sets for several years, but my 51 Stude radio will be my first car radio.
              I have the power line pigtail with one half of the fuse connector that connects to the radio. Where can I get the other half of that connector, or do I have to make up a new one? And where is the best place to draw power to the radio?

              Regards,
              Clarence
              Last edited by cbonner757; 06-14-2013, 05:20 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks, Dave. The 1.5 inch socket was good enough, and I got it positioned to the IGN timing mark letters on the right stroke. Tested with a spark tester that looks like a spark plug, where you watch for the spark (and can hear it click). I chose to turn the pulley from beneath the car, which was fairly easy.
                But I'd like to try the light, but I'm not clear on how you hooked it up. You mean you soldered bulb tip contact for ground, and the metal on the side of the bulb base to hot? And where on the distributor did you connect the hot wire? To number one plug on the rotor cap?
                I tried using a probe light tester (12v) which did light when I tested across the battery, but never did get it to light enough to see it when I turned the engine over by hand (or even with the starter) by probing the number one spark plug wire's spark plug end (unplugged from the spark plug).

                It does appear that my timing is quite off from where I thought it was. My old notes from a couple of years ago (before a distributor rebuild) said the Number One plug on the rotor cap is at 10:00. But the timing light showed the IGN timing mark way off--it's firing way too soon to match that mark, with not enough travel in moving the distributor. Tomorrow I plan to move the spark plug wires forward one position counter-clockwise to see if that gets the IGN mark
                close enough to adjust it normally by turning the distributor.

                Can anyone confirm that the normal Number One plug wire position on the rotor cap is at 10:00 or should it be at 9:00?

                Regards,
                Clarence

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cbonner757 View Post
                  Hey, I see you do radio stuff. I've been restoring tube AM/FM/SW sets for several years, but my 51 Stude radio will be my first car radio.
                  I have the power line pigtail with one half of the fuse connector that connects to the radio. Where can I get the other half of that connector, or do I have to make up a new one? And where is the best place to draw power to the radio?

                  Regards,
                  Clarence
                  Those fuse holders were common in 1950 and a similar design lasted into the 70's. It's probably best to just get a complete new fuse holder from one of the electronics supply firms, or if you have any TV - radio repair parts stores left in your area, they would have them.
                  The power comes from the ACC or accessory terminal of the ignition switch. That's the one that is hot in BOTH the ON position and the accessory position (turned counter clockwise) of the switch.

                  Good luck in your rebuild. 51's have a good parts layout and have room to work inside them - features that earlier and later radios did not have.
                  RadioRoy, specializing in AM/FM conversions with auxiliary inputs for iPod/satellite/CD player. In the old car radio business since 1985.

                  17A-S2 - 50 Commander convertible
                  10G-C1 - 51 Champion starlight coupe
                  10G-Q4 - 51 Champion business coupe
                  4H-K5 - 53 Commander starliner hardtop
                  5H-D5 - 54 Commander Conestoga wagon
                  56B-D4 - 56 Commander station wagon
                  60V-L6 - 60 Lark convertible

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    timing

                    Originally posted by cbonner757 View Post
                    Thanks, Dave. The 1.5 inch socket was good enough, and I got it positioned to the IGN timing mark letters on the right stroke. Tested with a spark tester that looks like a spark plug, where you watch for the spark (and can hear it click). I chose to turn the pulley from beneath the car, which was fairly easy.
                    But I'd like to try the light, but I'm not clear on how you hooked it up. You mean you soldered bulb tip contact for ground, and the metal on the side of the bulb base to hot? And where on the distributor did you connect the hot wire? To number one plug on the rotor cap?
                    I tried using a probe light tester (12v) which did light when I tested across the battery, but never did get it to light enough to see it when I turned the engine over by hand (or even with the starter) by probing the number one spark plug wire's spark plug end (unplugged from the spark plug).

                    It does appear that my timing is quite off from where I thought it was. My old notes from a couple of years ago (before a distributor rebuild) said the Number One plug on the rotor cap is at 10:00. But the timing light showed the IGN timing mark way off--it's firing way too soon to match that mark, with not enough travel in moving the distributor. Tomorrow I plan to move the spark plug wires forward one position counter-clockwise to see if that gets the IGN mark
                    close enough to adjust it normally by turning the distributor.

                    Can anyone confirm that the normal Number One plug wire position on the rotor cap is at 10:00 or should it be at 9:00?

                    Regards,
                    Clarence
                    Firstly lets start with the timing light, with a 6 volt single contact light bulb attach a wire to the contact with solder, don't over heat it. On the other end of the wire attach an aligator clip and attach it to the distributor contact. Now with an other wire with aligator clips on each end attach to the base of the light bulb and the other end to ground. With the key on rotate the motor by hand and each time the points close the light will light. Mark the IGN on the pulley with white paint. When that matk is in line with the pointer that is #1 fireing position. To confirm #1 piston is TDC remove the plug insert your thumb and rotate with starter as you feel the puff at that moment look for the the timing mark, advance the crank by hand to place the IGN mark in line with the pointer and the light will be on. Take note where the roter is pointing, that position is #1 fireing. Trace the wire down from #1 it should correspond with the position of the roter. The rotor on my engine sits at 1:00, the worst thing that could happen is it could be out 180 if so remove the distributor just far enough to remove it from the oil pump and rotate it 180 and reinsert. If it is in correct then trace the wire from #1 to the position of the rotor and follow the order 1-5-3-6-2-4- take note the direction of the rotor. Contact me if you need further

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      timing

                      Originally posted by altair View Post
                      Firstly lets start with the timing light, with a 6 volt single contact light bulb attach a wire to the contact with solder, don't over heat it. On the other end of the wire attach an aligator clip and attach it to the distributor contact. Now with an other wire with aligator clips on each end attach to the base of the light bulb and the other end to ground. With the key on rotate the motor by hand and each time the points close the light will light. Mark the IGN on the pulley with white paint. When that matk is in line with the pointer that is #1 fireing position. To confirm #1 piston is TDC remove the plug insert your thumb and rotate with starter as you feel the puff at that moment look for the the timing mark, advance the crank by hand to place the IGN mark in line with the pointer and the light will be on. Take note where the roter is pointing, that position is #1 fireing. Trace the wire down from #1 it should correspond with the position of the roter. The rotor on my engine sits at 1:00, the worst thing that could happen is it could be out 180 if so remove the distributor just far enough to remove it from the oil pump and rotate it 180 and reinsert. If it is in correct then trace the wire from #1 to the position of the rotor and follow the order 1-5-3-6-2-4- take note the direction of the rotor. Contact me if you need further
                      Some additional points if the pointer is in line with IGN mark and the light is not on rotate the distributor until it comes on, if there isn't sufficient travel then place it about 10 degrees advance and lock it then loosen the major adjustment (flange to block) and adjust as needed. This major adjustment offere about 120 degrees in each direction. If every thing is normal all these adjustment should be in the centre. I don't know the history of your engine but if at some time the oil pump was removed and reinserted it is possible that the distributor could be affected. The oil pump operates off the cam and is driven by a worm gear if it is inserted off one cog then the distributor will be off accordingly the major adjustment on the bottom of the distributor can overcome this condition. Ideally everything should be in the centre Dave British Columbia

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by altair View Post
                        Some additional points if the pointer is in line with IGN mark and the light is not on rotate the distributor until it comes on, if there isn't sufficient travel then place it about 10 degrees advance and lock it then loosen the major adjustment (flange to block) and adjust as needed. This major adjustment offere about 120 degrees in each direction. If every thing is normal all these adjustment should be in the centre. I don't know the history of your engine but if at some time the oil pump was removed and reinserted it is possible that the distributor could be affected. The oil pump operates off the cam and is driven by a worm gear if it is inserted off one cog then the distributor will be off accordingly the major adjustment on the bottom of the distributor can overcome this condition. Ideally everything should be in the centre Dave British Columbia
                        Correction on my comment the flange under the distributor that is bolted to the block is the minor adjustment and the bolted part under the distributor is the major adjustment

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by altair View Post
                          Correction on my comment the flange under the distributor that is bolted to the block is the minor adjustment and the bolted part under the distributor is the major adjustment
                          Interesting thread---The way I understand the shop manual for my 1950 Champion with the 170cu.in distributor is---the minor adjustment is for the different grade gasoline they had back then.------------

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            timing

                            Originally posted by bosshoss61 View Post
                            Interesting thread---The way I understand the shop manual for my 1950 Champion with the 170cu.in distributor is---the minor adjustment is for the different grade gasoline they had back then.------------
                            Interesting fact, the manual does refer the minor adjustment as "octane selector" but I am willing to bet that not too many 50s Studes ran on premium or ethel gas. The method of adjustment was not too scientific, go out on the road at full throttle adjust the octane selector until it pings and the back it off until the pinging stops. Dave

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks, Roy. Now I've got to find the tuning knob and shaft that got misplaced while it was sitting around.

                              Regards,
                              Clarence

                              Comment

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