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  • Engine: Valve Question

    In August of 2011 the rebuilt engine in my GT Hawk (with less than 15k on it)had a major failure.It sounded like something deep inside let go.A friend helped me remove and disassemble it and when we got it apart we noticed the #4 piston top was shiney clean...so we looked at the head and found 2 intake valves had been installed in the #4 valve chamber,the one that failed was in the exhaust spot.The shop (Alec's Automotive of Vancouver B.C.)claims this can' be so even tho I have a photo of the valves in the affected chamber,they say there is no way an intake valve will fit into that spot and I must have had a vacuum leak that caused this valve in the #4 chamber to fail and cause all the other issues(wiped out cam , crank had to be turned as well as #4 con rod bent). I have since put in a different engine with all the same bling on it & no troubles. So would putting an intake valve into an exhaust spot cause the valve to (tulip)fail? The original rebuild was $3500. and the repair was $1500. without repairing heads. Still fighting with the shop....grrrr

  • #2
    You would just about have to be blindfolded while assembling the Heads to do this, but it IS what it is, of course the Intake Valve being much larger than the Exhaust Valve Seat, the Valve WILL be destroyed, also the Valve Seat in the Head.

    Are they sure that a new replacement valve seat did not just come out and pound the valve into it?

    Then you have wonder where is the missing Exhaust Valve? Did they start with 16 New Valves, 8 each?

    The Intake Valve is either in a Exhaust Seat or it is not, their fault if it is, and their Dime to fix it!

    There is NO excuse for the Facts, they speak for themselfs.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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    • #3
      PackardV8

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      • #4
        Somebody got in a hurry!!

        Even though the valve may slide into the guide, on the stock V8's, the faces are different(intakes are cupped, exhaust are flat across the face), the valve diameter is differently(it may fit in the hole, and look like it will seat, but it may not seat), and even better, they are labeled or the identity of the valve is cast on the valve face(INL for intake, EXH for exhaust)! The biggest thing to worry about as well, is whether the valve will seat. I have a few on my '55, before I changed out the rocker arms, where the valve got damaged, stuck open, and what resulted was a whole lot of exhaust backfiring, and eventually, one exhaust valve where the stem bent out of spec(would not slide through the guide anymore, even though it looked normal), and another where the valve broke off and dropped into the combustion chamber, and destroyed the spark plug. Luckily the engine was not hurt in either case, and it was just a simple matter of changing the ailing valves!
        1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
        1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
        1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
        1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

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        • #5
          If this was the case I would think it would have had a miss on that cyl. from the get go and would not have run for 15k before showing up.

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          • #6
            Another thought on that note: It could have been working, but it wasn't completely sealing, it really did behave like a vacuum leak, leaned out, and it took this long for the problem to present itself.

            I know this much though, it is entirely possible to swap the valves, as I did it earlier with an old head of mine, and some intake valves laying around. The diameters of the valvestems are the same. What's different is when the intake valve seats in the exhaust port, it doesn't sit flush to the exhaust valve seat, because of the improper size of the valves. Much like fitting larger round peg into a smaller round hole, it protrudes a little bit into the combustion chamber. It's not much more than a few thousandths, but it's noticeable. That also means that the valve and the valve seat are not correct. A compression test and low compression numbers would have probably gave it away that something was wrong with that piston, if that was the case. Because of somebody's weird error, a very weird problem developed that shouldn't have developed, and resulted in engine damage.
            1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
            1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
            1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
            1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

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            • #7
              Thanks for all the responses.I needed that.

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              • #8
                I finally can add pics now.Here's a shot of #4 valve chamber with 2 intake valves & here's the clean #4 piston top.Re-cap;the engine was re-built & had less than 15 k when bad things started happening...the pics were taken right after dis-assembly, before I returned them to shop...they still didn't notice or say anything about the valves but neither did I. They did take the heads apart to clean & re-assemble, less one blown valve.I have since put a valve in but now have to wonder where the 2 exhaust valves were as when they put the valves back in some didn't go back to they're original spots, the #4 valve chamber now has an exhaust valve. I only saved pics of the failed parts & I just wanted to post some ... Thanks Click image for larger version

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                Last edited by Stu Duglee; 03-09-2013, 09:49 AM.

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                • #9
                  I don't believe I would trust the machine shop to do any more work if they did the sloppy work shown in the pictures. I've been working on Studebaker engines for 50 years and that is the first time I've seen someone install an intake valve in an exhaust port. What was the damage to the seats and to the rings and bore in the bad cylinder? Bud

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                  • #10
                    I am amazed the engine limped along for nearly 15,000 miles like that. I could not possibly have been running smoothly or efficiency, in any sense of the terms.

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                    • #11
                      So it ran OK for 15 kmiles? How many times did you adjust the valves? That intake looks like it would have closed up it's gap to zero long ago.

                      I'm not sure how to connect the swapped valves to the bent rod and bad cam.

                      the clean piston would have me thinking about no combustion ever, or running with a smallish coolant leak.

                      A coolant leak that led to hydrolock in that cylinder could bend a rod and I suppose hold the valves close overloading the lifters/cam, but I would expect a bent pushrod or 2 from that.

                      If the intake in the exhaust hole managed to seal (easier if the seats were cut but not narrowed with top and bottom cuts per the shop manual), its metallurgy is probably not up to exhaust valve operating temps.
                      I'd expect the rocker arm adjustment was initially WAY out to reach the intake riding high (low) on the exhaust seat.

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                      • #12
                        I've looked at the photo of the two valves several times and while both valves appear to be marked 'int' or 'inl', it sure looks to me like the burned valve is smaller. I wonder if it is for a 1951-54 engine?
                        So.....if I'm 'pre-approved' why do you want me to fill out an application?

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                        • #13
                          So, you're saying the cylinder with the nice clean piston was the same cylinder with the carboned up chamber and broken valve?
                          Jim
                          Often in error, never in doubt
                          http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                          ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

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                          • #14
                            That could just be the image itself, like all of them there optical illusions on the Web. . The valves are supposed to recess a bit as they sit on the valve seat if they're installed in the correct holes, so the incorrectly installed valve could just be poking up a little higher in the combustion chamber. Then again, once we get to this point, having a different valve altogether isn't out of the question either, hehe..
                            1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                            1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                            1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                            1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Stu,
                              Having been in the aftermarket auto parts and repair industry in greater Vancouver for most of my life, I have heard numerous horror stories of Alec's Automotive shop. I personally would only deal with one of two shops in Greater Vancouver who I have trusted for decades. High Performance Engines in Burnaby (Bud Child) or Precision Racing Engines, North Vancouver (Ron Newton). Good luck getting this to fruition.
                              Bill

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