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Flight-o-matic Transmission locking up when shifting from low to high!

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  • #61
    This service bulletin references transmission stall briefly.

    http://www.1956goldenhawk.com/servic...ins/sb-315.pdf
    RadioRoy, specializing in AM/FM conversions with auxiliary inputs for iPod/satellite/CD player. In the old car radio business since 1985.

    17A-S2 - 50 Commander convertible
    10G-C1 - 51 Champion starlight coupe
    10G-Q4 - 51 Champion business coupe
    4H-K5 - 53 Commander starliner hardtop
    5H-D5 - 54 Commander Conestoga wagon
    56B-D4 - 56 Commander station wagon
    60V-L6 - 60 Lark convertible

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    • #62
      Roy, if that service bulletin is for the 56 Golden Hawk wouldn't it be applying to the Packard Ultramatic transmission? I clicked on the link but nothing appeared.
      59 Lark wagon, now V-8, H.D. auto!
      60 Lark convertible V-8 auto
      61 Champ 1/2 ton 4 speed
      62 Champ 3/4 ton 5 speed o/drive
      62 Champ 3/4 ton auto
      62 Daytona convertible V-8 4 speed & 62 Cruiser, auto.
      63 G.T. Hawk R-2,4 speed
      63 Avanti (2) R-1 auto
      64 Zip Van
      66 Daytona Sport Sedan(327)V-8 4 speed
      66 Cruiser V-8 auto

      Comment


      • #63
        I had to do a Google advanced search for sb-315.pdf on that website. I came up with this url without elipses.

        http://www.1956goldenhawk.com/servic...ins/sb-315.pdf

        edit - looks like this board persistently snips the url.
        here's the full url again with the www. removed to try to keep the display true, in case that helps

        1956goldenhawk.com/servicebulletins/sb-315.pdf

        pages 3 and 4 have some Ultramatic topics.
        pages 4 and 5 talk about a few symptoms that a warner gear auto might demonstrate as a result of stick valve body components, including "full stall."
        there are some standard recommendations about checking pressures, and deburring the shuttle valves without rounding sharp corners.
        Last edited by Dan Timberlake; 02-25-2013, 07:05 AM.

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        • #64
          Looks like a reality check is in order here.
          A design flaw is when many or all of the same units fail.
          A badly worn or misused Transmission, rear end, engine, clutch, brake, or suspension component on ANY Car can fail, "lock up" and stop the vehicle and possibly hurt you.

          This is sillier than owners' Lawyers suing Ford because their Ford Explorer crashed from low air pressure, worn tires or poorly designed Firestone Tires failing.

          Last edited by StudeRich; 02-24-2013, 11:04 PM.
          StudeRich
          Second Generation Stude Driver,
          Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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          • #65
            Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
            Looks like a reality check is in order here.
            A design flaw is when many or all of the same units fail.
            A badly worn or misused Transmission, rear end, engine, clutch, brake, or suspension component on ANY Car can fail, "lock up" and stop the vehicle and possibly hurt you.

            This is sillier than owners' Lawyers suing Ford because their Ford Explorer crashed from low air pressure, worn tires or poorly designed Firestone Tires failing.

            No reality check is necessary. We seem to be confusing "design flaw" with "defects in workmanship and materials"; they are not necessarily one and the same. In the case of my transmission, there was not a failure with tires, tubes, valve stems or anything outside the scope of the design of the actual automobile mechanics in question. We are talking about a transmission that was working wonderfully when parked (albeit several months) in sheltered conditions, then locked-up during an automatic operation when driven again (without warning). Flaws can occur during design (and manufacturing) and may be immediately obvious or latent. In this particular case - and it appears there are others who have encountered the same condition - the transmission "locked-up" during a designed automatic operation in normal driving conditions. I will submit once more, any design that allows a full lock-up during a normal automatic operation - that puts a vehicle in an uncontrollable skid at 40 to 50 mph - is an unacceptable condition and a designed-in flaw.
            About those Firestone tires, I had one come apart on the right front of my Ford Expedition. I have never seen a tire come apart in three distinct pieces - left sidewall, right sidewall, and center tread. It came apart and beat the right inner fender-well to a pulp. Now you might suggest that I ran my tires under-inflated; so be it. The recommendations by Ford were less than the recommendations from the manufacturer. Why? Because Ford wanted the smoother ride with lower inflation pressures; if you use the manufacturers recomendations - in this case Firestone - the ride would simply beat you to death on any type of uneven/bumpy surface. Does that make Firestone and Ford complicit? I really don't care. But my two young children were in that Expedition when it happened and had I not been somewhat of an experienced driver, they may not have made it. Now back to the transmission. I really do not care if it is a design flaw, but some people might. For me - if I cannot find out why - I will crush the car for scrap metal.
            Last edited by carussell; 02-26-2013, 10:34 AM. Reason: syntax

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by carussell View Post
              No reality check is necessary. We seem to be confusing "design flaw" with "defects in workmanship and materials"; they are not necessarily one and the same. In the case of my transmission, there was not a failure with tires, tubes, valve stems or anything outside the scope of the deign of the actual automobile mechanics in question. We are talking about a transmission that was working wonderfully when parked (albeit several months) in sheltered conditions, then locked-up during an automatic operation when driven again (without warning). Flaws can occur during design (and manufacturing) and may be immediately obvious or latent. In this particular case - and it appears there are others who have encountered the same condition - the transmission "locked-up" during a designed automatic operation in normal driving conditions. I will submit once more, any design that allows a full lock-up during a normal automatic operation - that puts a vehicle in an uncontrollable skid at 40 to 50 mph - is an unacceptable condition and a designed-in flaw.
              About those Firestone tires, I had one come apart on the right front of my Ford Expedition. I have never seen a tire come apart in three distinct pieces - left sidewall, right sidewall, and center tread. It came apart and beat the right inner fender-well to a pulp. Now you might suggest that I ran my tires under-inflated; so be it. The recommendations by Ford were less than the recommendations from the manufacturer. Why? Because Ford wanted the smoother ride with lower inflation pressures; if you use the manufacturers recomendations - in this case Firestone - the ride would simply beat you to death on any type of uneven/bumpy surface. Does that make Firestone and Ford complicit? I really don't care. But my two young children were in that Expedition when it happened and had I not been somewhat of an experienced driver, they may not have made it. Now back to the transmission. I really do not care if it is a design flaw, but some people might. For me - if I cannot find out why - I will crush the car for scrap metal.
              Okay! Okay!...UNCLE!!!.....Whatever You say....Design flaw it is!!!!.....Just don't crush that '57 Hawk for scrap!

              Comment


              • #67
                So... it's been over two weeks. Do we know what the problem inside the transmission is/was?
                RadioRoy, specializing in AM/FM conversions with auxiliary inputs for iPod/satellite/CD player. In the old car radio business since 1985.

                17A-S2 - 50 Commander convertible
                10G-C1 - 51 Champion starlight coupe
                10G-Q4 - 51 Champion business coupe
                4H-K5 - 53 Commander starliner hardtop
                5H-D5 - 54 Commander Conestoga wagon
                56B-D4 - 56 Commander station wagon
                60V-L6 - 60 Lark convertible

                Comment


                • #68
                  I sure hope carussell's '57 Hawk doesn't end up like the Lincoln Continental in the movie 'GOLDFINGER'!

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by carussell View Post
                    - I will crush the car for scrap metal.

                    That might be the best answer for everyone involved. I am currently paying $300-350 for scap cars. Please send me a PM with your contact info and I will come get this one out of your hair this weekend. Thanks, Steve
                    sigpic

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                    • #70
                      He probably learned that it was something simple and he does not want to post that here.
                      Gary L.
                      Wappinger, NY

                      SDC member since 1968
                      Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        It's not really fair to start a conversation, especially one that led to all this flap, and then not post the soultion. It's like the old joke, "how do you keep an idiot in suspense?"
                        RadioRoy, specializing in AM/FM conversions with auxiliary inputs for iPod/satellite/CD player. In the old car radio business since 1985.

                        17A-S2 - 50 Commander convertible
                        10G-C1 - 51 Champion starlight coupe
                        10G-Q4 - 51 Champion business coupe
                        4H-K5 - 53 Commander starliner hardtop
                        5H-D5 - 54 Commander Conestoga wagon
                        56B-D4 - 56 Commander station wagon
                        60V-L6 - 60 Lark convertible

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Have not posted any results and there are none to report at this time. I have located another transmission and will be installing that in the near future. I have been caught-up in two 1964-1966 Chevy truck builds and those have taken most of my time.
                          Having said that, I cannot find a shop that wants to touch the transmission with the detailed inspection required to actually troubleshoot the issue and report the findings. Then again, that is partially my fault as I do not want to pay for work that is potentially open-ended. I will most likely pull the innerds apart myself and focus on parts that could potentially cause such a problem. Do not look for an answer any time soon. If anyone wants to volunteer their time - and attack this constructively (and honestly) - I will be more than happy to ship it to them at my expense for analysis. However, I will be done with it once shipped and will not pay for said analysis; payment will be ownership of a notorious transmission that almost killed me twice.

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                          • #73
                            OK, I read it and am still slightly confused. I know my question it a little off topic, but just to clear my mind, my understanding of the automatic transmission situation is this:

                            nd gear start, available in Commander only
                            nd gear start, Champion had 1st gear start.
                            st gear start.

                            st gear start, were installed in V-8 models only, old DG, 1st gear start, was still installed in Champion.

                            Am I wrong anywhere in this narrative?

                            Then what happened? When did the Flight-O-Matic begin 2st gear start? When did the Champion begin using FOM? Did Champion EVER have a 2nd gear start?

                            Did TRUCKS all have 1st gear start?

                            Straighten me out please.

                            John

                            P.S. I, like many other, think a dirty valve body caused the original problem. I rebuilt mine using a MoToR manual, so they aren't that hard to clean. Just keep your springs and balls in the correct places.
                            Last edited by Johnnywiffer; 05-27-2013, 08:43 AM.

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                            • #74
                              Seriously? You are willing to pay shipping to either Washington state or California?
                              AL SORAN RACING

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Johnnywiffer View Post
                                When did the Flight-O-Matic begin 2st gear start?
                                According to the 'Studebaker 1956 Passenger Car Shop Manual', the Flightomatic transmission in 1956: when the selector lever is placed in D (Drive) position for initial take-off - the car starts in first/Low gear and stays there at light throttle; at ~8 to 12mph), it automatically shifts into a second/intermediate gear and stays there at light throttle; at ~17 to 26mph, it automatically shifts into a third/high gear. The car will remain in this high gear until the accelerator is fully depressed, bringing about a kickdown to the next lower gear, or the speed is reduced to a point that a low-speed down-shift occurs automatically - typically ~10 to 17 mph from high/3rd gear to intermediate/2nd gear and ~3 to 7 mph from intermediate/2nd gear to low/1st gear.
                                If the selector lever is placed in L (Low) position for initial take-off, the car will stay in first gear; it will not upshift automatically. The selector lever must be moved into D (Drive) manually to bring about upshift. This is what I gather from the text.

                                According to the 'Studebaker 1956 Passenger Car Shop Manual - Supplement Covering 1957 Models', the Flightomatic transmission in 1957: when the selector lever is placed in D (Drive) position for initial take-off - the car starts in a second/intermediate gear and stays there at minimum throttle; at ~11 to 16mph, it then shifts automatically into a third/high gear. The car will remain in high gear until the accelerator is fully depressed, bringing about a kickdown to the next lower gear, or the speed is reduced to a point that a low-speed down-shift occurs automatically - typically ~6 to 10 mph from high/3rd gear to intermediate/2nd gear; a forced downshift to low/1st gear can be accomplished by moving the selector lever to L (Low) position manually at speeds between ~8 to 14 mph.
                                If the selector lever is placed in L (Low) position for initial take-off, the car will stay in first gear; it will not upshift automatically. The selector lever must be moved into D (Drive) manually to bring about upshift. This is what I gather from the supplement text for 57H-K models.

                                So the transition was between the 1956 and 1957 model years. Some of this information may be model dependent. Please correct me if I am wrong or unclear.

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