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  • Tech Question

    Which would be better. A cast and machined bracket 3/8" steel, or laminated 304 Stainless? I'll show pics of both.

    Here is the modified Ford bracket


    Here is the proposed laminated bracket in stainless.



    What do you guys think. There is another layer avaiable which would put the stainless at 9/16"


    Jim

    1966 Avanti II RQA 0088
    Jim
    Often in error, never in doubt
    http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

    ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Depending on the material...most definatly the steel.
    Plain ol cold rolled steel would be a good cheap material. Thats what I made mine from.

    No multi piece stainless!
    "One" piece...heat treated...304 would be good.
    Not a fan of aluminum on the front.

    What caliper would be they for?

    Mike

    Comment


    • #3
      The stainless is definitely stronger, the cast will dissipate heat better. I guess the real question is how much strength do you need and how fast do you want to get rid of the heat? If the stainless laminate is exposed to a lot of heating and cooling, it could delaminate pretty fast. Both parts look great, though!

      Comment


      • #4
        The application is the matching rear 12 inch Cobra brake for my 13 inch
        front Cobra brake. I explained in great detail on Racing Studebakers
        why the multipeice wont work right. Jim, just finish the Ford bracket
        with the info I provided and everything will be fine.[^][8D]

        Not a fan of aluminum huh? Better not step on an airplane again![]
        I posted the FEA analysis, feel free to read up in it Mike.

        Tom

        '63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires
        '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
        Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
        http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
        I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

        Comment


        • #5
          quote:Originally posted by sbca96

          Not a fan of aluminum huh? Better not step on an airplane again![]
          I sold my full service FBO a couple of years ago. All of the aluminum airplanes we worked on had steel brake caliper brackets.




          Dick Steinkamp
          Bellingham, WA

          Comment


          • #6
            Thats interesting, Dick. I am surprised they didnt use 7075-T6. It is
            stronger than most steels. Strange to bolt a steel caliper bracket to
            an aluminum suspension. At any rate 6061-T6 and 7075-T6 is used for
            structural material in commercial jets, that's what I was refering too.

            Tom
            '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
            Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
            http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
            I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

            Comment


            • #7
              What aluminum suspension? All Boeing airplanes and most others, have all steel landing gears, hundreds of tons of load and lots of wear and stress cannot be trusted to any soft weak materials like aluminum!

              StudeRich
              Studebakers Northwest
              Ferndale, WA
              StudeRich
              Second Generation Stude Driver,
              Proud '54 Starliner Owner

              Comment


              • #8
                Soft and weak? The Corvette has been getting by with an all aluminum
                suspension since the 80's. I apologize for my assumptions about air
                craft, considering that 6061-T6 and 7075-T6 are "aircraft structural
                grade aluminum" it seemed that they used them for more then toilet
                seats. I guess I can check with my buddy who works at Boeing for the
                facts and figures, but neither 6061 or 7075 is "soft and weak".

                Some numbers for comparison purposes :

                http://www.onlinemetals.com/productguide.cfm

                1144 (Stressproof-equivalent) steel
                Yield PSI 100,000

                7075-T6 aluminum
                Yield PSI 73,000

                12L14 steel (free machining)
                Yield PSI 60,200

                1018 steel (common cold rolled steel)
                Yield PSI 53,700

                6061-T6 aluminum
                Yield PSI 40,000

                A36 steel (common hot rolled steel)
                Yield PSI 36,300

                304 stainless steel
                Yield PSI 31,200

                A366/1008 steel (commercial quality cold rolled)
                Yield PSI 26,100-34,800

                Tom

                quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

                What aluminum suspension? All Boeing airplanes and most others, have all steel landing gears, hundreds of tons of load and lots of wear and stress cannot be trusted to any soft weak materials like aluminum!
                '63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires
                '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ask him about the Aloha Air Boeing 737 accident as well Tom. Of course after a few thousand pressure/depressure rounds on that airframe in conditions like that, aluminum might have a tendency to become soft and weak. I don't doubt aluminum, cmon they make intake manifolds(hmmm Stone's pieces?), from the stuff, some of it from recycled aircraft. And more than a fair share of aircraft take off/land everyday on aluminum structures. But be careful about assumptions that are too broad.


                  1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                  1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
                  [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
                  [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
                  [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
                  [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]
                  1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                  1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                  1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                  1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Aloha 737 became a convertible because of the procedure used to treat the metal prior to assembly. All the aircraft built during this time frame had to go under extensive sheetmetal repair. The crown on the fuselage top were removed and the metal was inspected and corrosion treated the reinstalled. Very manhour extensive. So it not the aluminum thats the problem its the corrosion that weakened the aluminum.

                    quote:Originally posted by PlainBrownR2

                    Ask him about the Aloha Air Boeing 737 accident as well Tom. Of course after a few thousand pressure/depressure rounds on that airframe in conditions like that, aluminum might have a tendency to become soft and weak. I don't doubt aluminum, cmon they make intake manifolds(hmmm Stone's pieces?), from the stuff, some of it from recycled aircraft. And more than a fair share of aircraft take off/land everyday on aluminum structures. But be careful about assumptions that are too broad.


                    1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                    1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
                    [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
                    [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
                    [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
                    [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]
                    Russ Shop Foreman "Rusty Nut Garage"
                    57 SH (project)
                    60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

                    Russ Shop Foreman \"Rusty Nut Garage\"
                    53 2R6 289 5SpdOD (driver)
                    57 SH (project)
                    60 Lark VIII 2dr sd (driver)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A little of my history on the laminated bracket. We have used this method for many years to prototype and prove designs on custom punches and dies for press tooling. It's quite remarkable how long this construction lasts in 250 ton and larger presses, as long as it is through bolted tightly. Goes downhill pretty fast if the tension comes off the bolts and pins. Never had a catastophic failure, just a deterioration of the profile geometry resulting in out of spec parts. Many times, we can use the laminated tooling for production several years and many thousands of parts with the addition of some hardened wear inserts. Seems to work pretty well when the load applied is parallel to the lamination. Oh well, it was just a little "after hours" project.

                      Jim

                      1966 Avanti II RQA 0088
                      Jim
                      Often in error, never in doubt
                      http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                      ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Jim, I wish I had the tools available to play like that, I have more
                        than most it seems, though I can not operate the machinery myself. The
                        yield strength of 304 is actually less than 6061-T6, and then you have
                        more than one piece. When you do the FEA, make sure you input each of
                        the parts as a separate entity. Only the 3 bolts that mount, and the
                        two bolts for the caliper will be the union points. The stress risers
                        will be around each hole and at the bond. You will need to check the
                        yield point of your bond material against the maximum heat it will see
                        transfered to it from the caliper/differential.

                        I think that the general feeling machining it from a solid is better.

                        Tom
                        '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                        Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                        http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                        I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Definately agree that a solid would be better. With a sheet of 3/8" stainless well over $1000, I wanted to be sure my dimensions were right first. Sort of like your masonite template. I had enough drop laying around to build up a laminated piece out of 3/16". After I cut it and it fit, I started wondering about just using it. The Ford bracket gets pretty thin in some places where the extra holes are. Of course, there isn't much of a lateral load on it.

                          If you look at a brake system as a heat sink (and I do), there are other issues that arise that I just don't have any experience with. But I do have access to thermocouples and transmitters with data logging to see what sort of heat is getting to the brackets and fasteners. That might be a fun project too.

                          Jim

                          1966 Avanti II RQA 0088
                          Jim
                          Often in error, never in doubt
                          http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                          ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Agreed, there is the issue of the existing holes in the bracket, and
                            the counter bores for those holes, but none seemed to compromise the
                            integrity of the bracket. Keep in mind that for the rear you can take
                            liberities that you would never do on a front brake bracket. Even the
                            laminated piece will probably work fine in the rear that only does 30%
                            of the stopping (on a good stop). You are correct in that there is
                            little or no lateral force on the bracket, only what is transfered to
                            it from the caliper being bolted offset to one side of the rotor. The
                            main force is radial, and in that regard its plenty strong.

                            Tom
                            '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                            Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                            http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                            I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tom I do have a small clue about materials.
                              I have worked in the areospace industry as a Manufacturing and Test Engineer for over 35 years!! How do you think I knew where the "E" and the "A" go!!

                              So now...who has the materials experience.
                              I work with these materials most every day. What's not realized is the loads put on these parts.
                              Some materials work better for some things than others...RIGHT...
                              Take Kevlar...a bullet stopper right...most rifle bullets will go thru aluminum or thinner (.250 or .312) steel. As me how I know that! Carbon Fiber CAN also be stronger than steel. BUT with todays technology...I also wouldn't use that for a caliper barcket on a car much over 1500lbs.

                              Aluminum on the Vette...do I have a story. Ask Mr. Turner (the brake guy) about our conversations a few years ago!!
                              Do "you" know what grade aluminum is used on the Vette...or the heat treatment applied? So...what aluminum IS best...do so tell us?

                              So now where's the logic?

                              I stick by a good steel or heat treated stainless steel.

                              And by the way...I prefer to ride IN planes rather that getting ON one! So windy on a wing!

                              Mike

                              Comment

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