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R2 Electric Fuel Pump

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  • R2 Electric Fuel Pump

    OK, I'm finishing up on the R2 in the '53 projet and I'm starting to bump up against the limits of my technical knowledge. I don't have any experience with electric pumps, especially in a supercharged engine. I have a Holly pump and pressure regulator, and I'm looking for advice on how and where to install it, and what to do about the return line in particular. Any suggestions/tips would be appreciated.


    Steve Hudson
    The Dalles, Oregon
    1937 Dictator Streetrod
    1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually
    1953 Commander Convertible
    1954 Champion Coupe

    Steve Hudson
    The Dalles, Oregon
    1949 \"GMOBaker\" 1-T Dually (workhorse)
    1953 Commander Convertible (show & go)
    1953 "Studacudallac" (project)

  • #2
    The return line can come off the factory location on the fuel filter near the car, or on the inlet of the pump on early cars.You could modify the pressure regulator by plumbing the small hose for the blower to the top of the pressure regulator diaphragm. BTW, never had much luck with just a electric pump on a R2.

    JDP/Maryland


    63 GT R2
    63 Avanti R1
    63 Daytona convert
    63 Lark 2 door
    62 Lark 2 door
    60 Lark HT-60Hawk
    59 3E truck
    58 Starlight
    52 & 53 Starliner
    51 Commander

    JDP Maryland

    Comment


    • #3
      You still need the restrictor fitting used on some stock R2 Hawks, Larks and Avantis or the glass bowl filter unit to separate the 3/8" carb feed from the return line. You only need a 1/4" return line. The problem I see is that the cooling effect of returning the excess fuel back to the tank would not work unless it returns from near the carb. and it is common knowledge that electric pumps work best if mounted in the rear because they push better than pull. That also helps reduce the terrible racket they make.

      Has anyone put the restrictor fitting and "T" near the carb. and fuel pump near the tank? I think it could work.

      I think you said once before that you absolutely HAVE to remove the mechanical one, because of other "Custom" concerns. That would have been be my choice...leave it stock.

      StudeRich
      Studebakers Northwest
      Ferndale, WA
      StudeRich
      Second Generation Stude Driver,
      Proud '54 Starliner Owner

      Comment


      • #4
        Yeah my Holley electric pump is still reminiscent on my engine from removing a Pro-jection Injection setup from a previous install. Mines also located off the outlet of the tank and the system was replumbed through the 3 port Holley regulator (inlet, outlet, and return) and set for factory pressure by adjusting the hex screw in the top of the regulator so as not to overwhelm the carb. I never had much trouble with it. Just remember the electrics (wiring, relay, plugs, etc), and they should have a good electrical connection, or the car will cut out at the most inopportune time(LOL, dont ask how I know this). The regulator was mounted on the firewall. As to the boost reference line I pulled the regulator apart and drilled and tapped a hole in the top of the diaphragm to make it a four port system. Dunno about the rest of world, but I would opt for the Mallory regultor instead. It has all of the necessary ports for this kinda thing.
        The return line I have was plumbed all the way back to the upper part of the fuel fill from the firewall. As far as the restrictor, there of course should be a restrictor in the return line or the pressure will be impossible to set because of the loop of fuel running from the pump to the return line with very little going to the carb. I must advise a fuel gauge inline with the pump and the return. I don't know about accuracy, but it does provide a rough idea what the pressure the fuel is being pumped at, as well as provide a quick troubleshoot about the fuel situation if the car suddenly dies. Of course it doesnt replace the gauge that goes in the toolbox though. I'd probably advise a mechanical if possible. I don't dispute an electric (or an electric in series with a mechanical), but it can be a major change.


        1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
        1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
        [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
        [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
        [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
        [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]
        1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
        1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
        1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
        1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

        Comment


        • #5
          It would be a good idea to have two 0 to 15 lb gauges installed to measure pressure at the output of the supercharger and fuel pressure to the carb. You need to know fuel pressure increases with supercharger pressure. If you're going to use a mechanical fuel pressure gauge in the car, use an isolator.
          Mike M.
          Mike M.

          Comment


          • #6
            For the past 10 years, this has worked for me...
            )Holley Blue pump (Holley 12-802) or any pump that can reliably supply 5-8psi
            )Holley oil pressure safety switch (Holley 12-810). There are also made by NAPA (Echlin brand) p/n OP-6610
            )3/8" fuel line
            )Mallory 4309 bypass regulator
            http://www.studebaker-info.org/0381/0381-R3/Image14.jpg

            You NEED the bypass regulator and a return line to the fuel source (not necessarily the tank) I made the return tee into the supply to the fuel pump.
            Mount the pump anywhere under the body, that you can isolate the noise and be clear of moving "things".
            (If I forgot anything, I'll add it later..)
            (.....oh, 12 mpg)




            Bob Johnstone
            64 GT Hawk (K7)
            1970 Avanti (R3)

            Comment


            • #7
              Bob, tell me more about the bypass regulator. What would happen if the return line was eliminated alltogether?


              Steve Hudson
              The Dalles, Oregon
              1937 Dictator Streetrod
              1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually
              1953 Commander Convertible
              1954 Champion Coupe

              Steve Hudson
              The Dalles, Oregon
              1949 \"GMOBaker\" 1-T Dually (workhorse)
              1953 Commander Convertible (show & go)
              1953 "Studacudallac" (project)

              Comment


              • #8

                The bypass allows excess fuel pressure from overwhelming the carb. Using a standard regulator from Holley or anyone else, will not allow this and, on occasion, fill flood your carb and stall your engine.

                The fuel pressure, being controlled by boost, will fluxuate, but the pressure, when high, cannot be made to just go away, i.e. ,if you suddenly hit the brakes. An R2 keeps the boost in play from idle speed to redline and the lack of a bleedoff, will almost certainly guarantee you an embarassing moment or two. (ask me how I know)
                The Mallory 4309 is perfect for this application. I added the return line and a fuel pressure gauge with the extra ports. it's very easy to install.

                Bob Johnstone
                64 GT Hawk (K7)
                1970 Avanti (R3)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Bob, I think that's the way I'll go. As I understand it then, in the original mechanical system, the fuel pressure was increased as the boost increased. In this system, the pressure stays constant, but the excess is bled off when not needed?


                  Steve Hudson
                  The Dalles, Oregon
                  1937 Dictator Streetrod
                  1949 "GMOBaker" 1-T Dually
                  1953 Commander Convertible
                  1954 Champion Coupe

                  Steve Hudson
                  The Dalles, Oregon
                  1949 \"GMOBaker\" 1-T Dually (workhorse)
                  1953 Commander Convertible (show & go)
                  1953 "Studacudallac" (project)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You might be talking about a couple of different items there. If your talking about a Blow Off Valve, thats relegated more for a turbocharger system that uses a exhaust and a compression impeller. The pressure in a turbocharger is fairly set, but since it runs like blowing on a pinwheel, there needs to be a way to lose the excess pressure once the throttle valves close. When the throttle valves close, theres no place for the pressure to go except back to the turbine blades, which the backlogged pressure waves can cause real damage to the blades. The turbo is still spinning once you decellerate, causing the excess pressure. A supercharger is fixed to the belt, so once you decellerate, the pressure in the blower decreases. There is no excess pressure, with exception of some systems, of which the supercharger needs to remove as it is attached to a belt, which is attached to the engine.
                    The other thing I think I gathered from the question was about the reference line/fuel pressure line setup. Anyways, far as I know, the fuel pressure went up or down in relation to the boost pressure so the system on either side (boost/ and fuel line pressure) were equalized. Thats the reason for the nipple and the need for a nipple on the nonfuel side of the diaphragm. Unless the designs in the supercharger/turbocharger system have changed, that should still be used today in both supercharger and turbocharger applications(its employed in the TE04H turbo as a pair of nipples on the compression side, one which runs to the wastegate). The pressure in this case, wouldnt necessarily bleed off. Its more like as the engine accelerates or decellerates, the boost in the blower goes up or down, thereby increasing or decreasing the pressure in the reference line(the nipple on the blower) and increasing or decreasing the fuel line pressure to equalize the system so fuel doesnt try to return to the tank down the main line its coming from (breathes) .
                    I'm going to need help on this, but the Paxton he has, has no Blow Off Valve, if he's looking at the flapper valve in the chrome bonnet. It escapes me the use of the flapper valve, but I thought it was too keep the engine from surging like you hear from the cars with Rootes Blowers. I have yet to see a factory Blow Off Valve, aside from the homemade radiator tee with the cap at a set pressure, on a Paxton setup. I know only the most modern of system use them, as some of the Paxton/Vortech/etc put out pressure that exceeds the need of the engine.


                    1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                    1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
                    [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
                    [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
                    [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
                    [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]
                    1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                    1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                    1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                    1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There's a lot of info @
                      http://www.vs57.com/indextech.htm .
                      See "Fuel Pump Modification".
                      You need to increase fuel pressure with boost, since the float bowl in the carb is pressurized. It's at supercharger output pressure, too; not manifold pressure.
                      The stock systems did this by "boost referencing" the mechanical fuel pump. Pump pressure is determined by the spring on the pump stem, which collapses at specified pressure. It's reinforced by boost pressure from the supercharger, fed to the back side of the diaphragm, to assist the spring.
                      The stock return line was through a .050" restriction. Probably, the stock pump easily supplies the amount of fuel that flows through that restriction, without reducing pressure.
                      Although Stude intended the return line to lower fuel temps, I think mostly it served to relieve fuel pressure to the carb, when the car was parked, so it wouldn't flood. If the return is from a high point in the system, like the sediment bowl on top, it also works as a vapor diverter.
                      A system that allows low pressure at idle, but can keep up with supercharger pressure is needed. Regulating fuel pressure by changing the flow in the return line is probably a better way to do it, than putting a regulator in the line to the carb.
                      Mike M.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        "Overwelm the carburetor" with pressure..........!?

                        Another wives tale if I've ever heard one..

                        A properly working Holley regulator (and many/most others) will go down to 3 pounds of pressure. Now if your carbuetor can't withstand three pounds of pressure...you've got a problem!

                        Not sure about the factory fuel inlet and return....but there's many ways...some better than others to connect a Blown, blow thru carbuetors fuel pump...and a single regulator will work just fine. The Holley blue pump was designed to work "dead head". Will it work better with a return...it won't run as hot...that's about all.

                        Other pumps ARE designed to work with a return and should use one.

                        Mike

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          -------------------
                          "Overwelm the carburetor" with pressure..........!?

                          Another wives tale if I've ever heard one.
                          -------------------
                          Exactly what I said....overwhelm, ie to supply too much and since we're speaking of fuel and pressure, that's what was meant.

                          What else would cause the carb to flood the engine and stall. Mr. expert. This does happen and if the cheapo Holley regulator had a bleedoff capability, it wouldn't happen.

                          Might be a wives tale to you, but you probably don't play around enough, with the big toys, to keep from sticking your foot in your mouth...





                          Bob Johnstone
                          64 GT Hawk (K7)
                          1970 Avanti (R3)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think we misread the overwhelm the carburetor with pressure statement.
                            Set the regulator to 7 lbs or whatever the factory asks you to set it at.
                            Now set the regulator to over 10 lbs for the Carter. If the floats don't collapse, lines burst, spew fuel from the seals and lead to eventual rebuild or getting the fire extinguisher, I'll try the same.
                            I should also mention there is another type of regulator, the rising rate regulator. If I remember correctly there is no way to set those as they are designed for the system they were implemented for, which is usually a FI setup. The pressure rises and falls as it receives signals from the engine like the float in a toilet. You could try a rising rate regulator, but that would take some real research to implement on a Carter.


                            1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                            1950 Studebaker 2R5 with 170 turbocharged
                            [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00003.jpg?t=1171152673[/img=left]
                            [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00009.jpg?t=1171153019[/img=right]
                            [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00002.jpg?t=1171153180[/img=left]
                            [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]
                            1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                            1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                            1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                            1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                            Comment

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