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Charging system. REPAIRED!

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  • Charging system. REPAIRED!

    Here's what I've done to date:

    1)I've purchased a new battery.
    2)I've taken my alternator to the local rewind shop TWICE confirming both times it has 37A of output.
    On my second trip to the rewind alternator shop I also brought in my Voltage regulator. It had a regulated voltage output but the the coil showed that it had a short in it.
    3) I replaced the voltage regulator with a new modern electronic regulator supplied by the alternator shop.
    4) Finally I thought I had the charging system repaired I then boosted the Hawk and the ammeter showed a charging state for about 5 minutes then went to a neutral state.
    5)I Drove the car for a while parked it in the shop tried to start it and the battery was dead.
    6) I borrowed a Battery charger from a freind and Charged the battery. I tested Continuity on the field wire (alternator to voltage regulator and the charge wire (alternator to solenoid). The wires show continuity.
    7) Looked for a ground wire from the engine to the motor mount and that was missing. I installed a #10 AWG from the engine to the frame mount.
    8) I cleaned the battery cables connections which meant I had to remove the power steering pump to be able to clean the ground connection on the waterpump manifold.
    9) Since the power steering pump was off I removed the fuel pump and installed a new gasket. One more leak fixed.
    10) Put it all back together with a fully charged battery.
    11) I set my Fluke meter testing Amperage draw between the positive post of the battery and the soleniod. My stereo is drawing 5.4 milliamps constantly. This is the only draw on the battery with the car ignition off.

    While driving the dash ammeter shows a neutral state with everything off, No lights, no stereo. When I turn on the stereo the ammeter shows a slight draw on the system. But when I throw the headlights on it the ammeter make a big jump showing a discharging state. The ammeter never showed a positive state after the original installation.

    I'm at my wits end![}] My only thought is I have blown that new voltage requlator. I should have started out with a freshly charged battery before starting up the car. Looking back at the series of events with the rapid charge the ammeter after I installed the new voltage regulator, then the ammeters neutral state within 5 minutes. I suspect I have a faulty voltage regulator again.

    Any other thoughts?





    1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone
    1964 GT Hawk
    PSMCDR 2014
    Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
    PSMCDR 2013
    Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

    Victoria, Canada

  • #2
    My first test in a "no charge" situation is to undo the two regulator connections and stick them together. If that makes the guage show a charge (or you can hear the alternator working) it usually means the regulator is bad. Also those electronic regulators can act funny in REALLY cold weather.

    Comment


    • #3
      Electronic voltage regulators are pretty sturdy devices unless you short them out, drive over them or beat them with a hammer. The first thing I'd try would be to fire it up and check to see that you have in the neighborhood of 12 volts at the field coil wire terminal. If so, that means the regulator is good and sending juice to the alternator. If not, make sure the regulator is well grounded by making metal to metal on the mounting tabs or shell. Also make sure you're getting 12 volts to the regulator. If so but still no regulator output, disconnect the hot wire going to the regulator and using something like a tail light bulb, make sure you're actually getting some current (amperage) through the wire. Testing meters use very little current and sometimes what shows as 12 volts fizzles out to nearly nothing when more current is drawn. If the regulator still doesn't put out anything, then that's probably the problem. If the regulator tests out ok, then it's likely the alternator. To confirm that, run a hot wire directly to the field terminal of teh alternator, bypassing the regulator. If the alternator then charges (you should hear the belt squeak more or look at the ammeter), you can pronounce the regulator as being dead.

      I'm assuming the shop tested the alternator for output only and didn't take it apart. Were it mine, I'd suspect worn brushes. I've had them charge fine, totally quit and maybe or maybe they wouldn't start charging again until stopped and restarted later. Inside the alternator are two little spring loaded carbon brushes that ride on the slip ring, making an electrical connection and energizing the electromagnet necessary to produce current. As the brushes wear, the spring tension becomes less and less and sooner or later what was an intermittent charging failure becomes a permanent one. If you're so inclined, you can split the alternator shell and look at the brushes. They will have a little braided copper wire attaching them to the alternator, so make sure those wires aren't broken or disconnected. If they're around 1/4 inch long or shorter, they're probably done for. Before buying new ones and going to the work or soldering them in, try taking something like a popsickle stick and cut some little square pieces small enough to be inserted into the hole the brush slips into. Or use something like a piece of wooden dowel, tinkertoy or folded up paper. Stick whatever in up to maybe 1/4" and with the alternator reassembled, try it. The spacers added will increase the tension of the spring forcing it to make a better connection. If it now works, you have plenty of time and several miles before you have to get them replaced.

      Comment


      • #4
        Electronic voltage regulators are pretty sturdy devices unless you short them out, drive over them or beat them with a hammer. The first thing I'd try would be to fire it up and check to see that you have in the neighborhood of 12 volts at the field coil wire terminal. If so, that means the regulator is good and sending juice to the alternator. If not, make sure the regulator is well grounded by making metal to metal on the mounting tabs or shell. Also make sure you're getting 12 volts to the regulator. If so but still no regulator output, disconnect the hot wire going to the regulator and using something like a tail light bulb, make sure you're actually getting some current (amperage) through the wire. Testing meters use very little current and sometimes what shows as 12 volts fizzles out to nearly nothing when more current is drawn. If the regulator still doesn't put out anything, then that's probably the problem. If the regulator tests out ok, then it's likely the alternator. To confirm that, run a hot wire directly to the field terminal of teh alternator, bypassing the regulator. If the alternator then charges (you should hear the belt squeak more or look at the ammeter), you can pronounce the regulator as being dead.

        I'm assuming the shop tested the alternator for output only and didn't take it apart. Were it mine, I'd suspect worn brushes. I've had them charge fine, totally quit and maybe or maybe they wouldn't start charging again until stopped and restarted later. Inside the alternator are two little spring loaded carbon brushes that ride on the slip ring, making an electrical connection and energizing the electromagnet necessary to produce current. As the brushes wear, the spring tension becomes less and less and sooner or later what was an intermittent charging failure becomes a permanent one. If you're so inclined, you can split the alternator shell and look at the brushes. They will have a little braided copper wire attaching them to the alternator, so make sure those wires aren't broken or disconnected. If they're around 1/4 inch long or shorter, they're probably done for. Before buying new ones and going to the work or soldering them in, try taking something like a popsickle stick and cut some little square pieces small enough to be inserted into the hole the brush slips into. Or use something like a piece of wooden dowel, tinkertoy or folded up paper. Stick whatever in up to maybe 1/4" and with the alternator reassembled, try it. The spacers added will increase the tension of the spring forcing it to make a better connection. If it now works, you have plenty of time and several miles before you have to get them replaced.

        Comment


        • #5
          sorry about the two replys, stupid computer testing my patience!

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks for the information, John. I went out to try out some additional electrical tests and noticed my Fuel pump leaking like a sieve around the bottom gasket! I haven't the time or patience today to even look at the bane of my existance. It seems my normal due course,... fix one leak and you get another.

            1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone
            1964 GT Hawk
            PSMCDR 2014
            Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
            PSMCDR 2013
            Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

            Victoria, Canada

            Comment


            • #7
              The information was SO good, the computer posted it twice.

              Tom

              '63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires
              '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
              Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
              http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
              I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

              Comment


              • #8
                We all think of electricity as being a spark of some sort, well I once read that electricity is really nothing more than smoke. Yep. You have all these smoke filled wires running here and there under the hood and dash that power all sorts of things. When one of those electrical components fails, usually the failure is immediately preceded by smoke coming out of it. Kind of like a tire; when the wire or component springs a leak and lets the smoke escape, it ceases to function. Like they say, where there's smoke there's fire, which is particulary true when speaking of spark plugs. So the next time your car doesn't start, chances are all the smoke has escaped from the plug wires and most likely it escaped out the exhaust pipe because that's where you usually find smoke.

                And just remember that your Stude is like your child; they can be very trying at times when you're raising them, but one of these days you'll be very proud of what you have and you'll have forgotten all about those vexing times. Well, maybe not have forgotten them, but at least you'll be able to talk about them without having to chug a bottle of Prozac.

                Comment


                • #9
                  smoke = electricity... Sounds like Kirchoff's new law (what's he smoking?)

                  Las Vegas, NV
                  '51 Champion Business Coupe G899965 10G-Q4-1434

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I managed to fix my Fuel pump leak and then looked at the charging circuit again. I confirmed the new electronic voltage regulator cave in after ten minutes use last friday. I found that the ignition wire at the regulator had voltage and current (I hooked up my new fan motor which i have not installed yet). I then checked for voltage at the field side of the regulator and had 0 volts. I then connected the field wire to the ignition wire and checked my Ammeter proving the alternator is still ok. I will be bringing back the voltage regulator to have it replaced

                    Thanks again


                    1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone
                    1964 GT Hawk
                    PSMCDR 2014
                    Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
                    PSMCDR 2013
                    Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

                    Victoria, Canada

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Good to hear! Before you put the new one on, you might give it a good talking to...maybe threaten to beat it to a pulp with a sledge hammer if it doesn't work as expected. Hey, works for me!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I just replaced the voltage regulator. I took the Hawk out for a spin and blew another regulator. I have resolved that I must have a intermittent short in the alternator. It think that the vibration of the running engine once and a while shorts the field wire. The Alternator rewind shop will look at the alternator and fix it tomorrow.

                        Does anybody have a prestolite part number for a 64 Alternator? The alternator shop would like to see if he could find a replacement before he rewinds and replaces the bearings.

                        1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone
                        1964 GT Hawk
                        PSMCDR 2014
                        Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
                        PSMCDR 2013
                        Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

                        Victoria, Canada

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You could try my Honda alternator swap....

                          http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/.../hondaalt.html

                          Tom

                          quote:Originally posted by studebaker-R2-4-me
                          Does anybody have a prestolite part number for a 64 Alternator?
                          '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                          Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                          http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                          I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've been thinking about your delimma this morning. I'm sure no Thomas Edison, but I don't think a short in the alternator is frying your voltage regulator. In the alternator, you have the possibility of two types of electrical short circuits, internal and external. An internal short in the field coil because of insulating material (varnish) breakdown is going to result in greatly reduced voltage output, like around 11.25 volts max regardless how much juice is applied to the field coil. An external short between the field and the case is most likely going to fry the field coil. An internal short on the rotor winding is also going to result in a diminished or no magnetic field produced resulting in little or no output and an external short will fry that winding, rendering the whole works dead. My experience has been that internal shorts are permanent and not intermittent (such as worn brushes are) and external shorts usually fail because of Kirchhoff's New Law; the smoke escapes.

                            Most if not all modern electronic voltage regulators have internal protection in the form of an internal feedback circuit to keep from frying the output transistor should a dead short occur in the field wire or winding. However, I know that does little to explain why the regulators keep going up in smoke.

                            I might ask several questions. Are you sure the wire from the input side of the regulator is connected to a switched circuit? What configuration is the voltage regulator? Is it the same shape and size as the old mechanical Delco Remy regulators with 4 terminals (approximately 2.5 X 3 X 4"), is it pretty much the same size and configuration as the Chrysler-Prestolite two terminal regulators (approximately 2 X 2 X 3") or something along the line of the later model electronic regulators with the back side poured full of wax? Is the case of the regulator grounded well onto the firewall or other such place? Concerning the second regulator, did it charge for a bit before fizzling out and if so, did it charge full tilt until it croaked, full charge dwindling off some then pooping out or something in between? When it turned up its toes, was it a sudden death or kind of a lingering one? I know that's a lot of questions to answer, but problems such as yours really annoy me, especially when the cause remains hidden.

                            And there's always Tom's suggestion, screw the whole works and put on an internally regulated one. I figure when you get tired of swimming upstream, sometimes getting out and walking is more productive and can certainly cause fewer ulcers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              John, all 3 regulators were Chrysler-Prestolite type two terminal. Ignition and field terminals. The original was a mechanical, first new regulator's back was filled with epoxy the second one was riveted shut but was electronic also. I believe the ignition wire is switched but carries voltage and current. The electronic regulator was grounded very well with a shiny bolt I even connected an additional ground wire under the horn relay bolt.

                              As I connected the 2nd new voltage regulator and fired up the engine. The dash ammeter was in the charging position. The battery has enough charge to easily start the engine. I jumped into the car and took it for a spin thinking I will be able to attend a local cruise night. I got 4 blocks from my home and the needle jumped more positive then dropped like a rock to -10 Amp for just a second and returned to the neutral position. I put on my headlights and found the ammeter was discharging at the -10A position.

                              Here is what happened at the alternator shop. I gave back the 2nd VR then took the ignition wire and connected it to the field wire. I thought for the 5 blocks that I am going it would just charge my battery anyway. So I pull out the parking stall and am watching my ammeter gauge in the 10-15A positive charging position. I noticed as I am backing out of the stall the ammeter takes a hard dive to -35 A then back to the neutral position and again the positive 10-15A position. This occurred with no Voltage regulator installed. This sure leads me to believe I have a intermittent fault in the alternator field coil.

                              I am removing the alternator tomorrow morning and bringing to the rewind shop . He will bench test it AGAIN and bang it around to simulate the vibrations of the engine, if He finds something he will take it apart, rewind it. replace the front and rear bearings. BTW The alternator shop found a rebuilt Prestolite ALE 5001 in Edmonton but the repair will be cheaper than the rebuilt. I might even buy that GLE 5003 Avanti alternator on Ebay and use rewinded alternator as a back up for my R2 engine install later this summer.

                              I'm really fed up with this!

                              Allen






                              1964 GT Hawk soon to be R2 Clone
                              1964 GT Hawk
                              PSMCDR 2014
                              Best time: 14.473 sec. 96.57 MPH quarter mile
                              PSMCDR 2013
                              Best time: 14.654 sec. 94.53 MPH quarter

                              Victoria, Canada

                              Comment

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