Transmission / Overdrive: No Reverse

[Ravoll]

Hi All,
A little introduction
45 years old,American citizen living in Germany.Really not A Studebaker driver,but a friend of mine is.

So.I have an aquaintance that has reciently purchased a 1963 Studebaker,Hawk,Gran Tourismo,6 cylinder ,2,8Ltr.,85 Hp.
I don't know anything at all about Studebakers but from the looks of the gear selector it's a ??? 2 speed automatic.??? MArkings on the selector are,from left to right: P,N,D,L,R.Looked strange to me so I need to know if this is normal that Reverse is the last selection,or is this a European thing.?Kinda used to P,R,N,D,L with the Chevy Powerglides.
Anyway,the tranny doesn't seem to want to go into reverse.I saw where he had taken the access panel from the passenger side floorboard off and what looks like some sort of band ajuster is sticking out of the transmission.If thats even what it is,but it seems that the retaining end is broken off.
If thats the case then we will most likely pull it out and overhaul it.


I sure could use some info,an exploded diagram,or anything of this tranny type , so I know what I'm getting into.Is this a typical Automatic as we know them today or is this more exotic Could use some help.And links to parts will probably also be needed.

Thx.
Ravoll

[N8N]

Hi All,
A little introduction
45 years old,American citizen living in Germany.Really not A Studebaker driver,but a friend of mine is.

So.I have an aquaintance that has reciently purchased a 1963 Studebaker,Hawk,Gran Tourismo,6 cylinder ,2,8Ltr.,85 Hp.
I don't know anything at all about Studebakers but from the looks of the gear selector it's a ??? 2 speed automatic.??? MArkings on the selector are,from left to right: P,N,D,L,R.Looked strange to me so I need to know if this is normal that Reverse is the last selection,or is this a European thing.?Kinda used to P,R,N,D,L with the Chevy Powerglides.
Anyway,the tranny doesn't seem to want to go into reverse.I saw where he had taken the access panel from the passenger side floorboard off and what looks like some sort of band ajuster is sticking out of the transmission.If thats even what it is,but it seems that the retaining end is broken off.
If thats the case then we will most likely pull it out and overhaul it.


I sure could use some info,an exploded diagram,or anything of this tranny type , so I know what I'm getting into.Is this a typical Automatic as we know them today or is this more exotic Could use some help.And links to parts will probably also be needed.

Thx.
Ravoll

It's a Borg-Warner trans, it's actually a three speed but starts off in second unless you mat the accelerator. (don't quote me on that, a 6-cyl trans might actually start off in first?) If you were in the US it would seem pretty straightforward to an old school tranny guy but not sure how much expertise there is in Germany? In any case the shop manual and parts books are still available and do have good information although I'm not sure if there is a German language shop manual available?

The reason the shift quadrant is different is simply because the standard hadn't been decided on back in the day. Eventually a FMVSS mandated a PRNDL or PRND21 shift quadrant but the introduction of FMVSS's post-dated 1963. I've seen some other transmissions with a similar quadrant, I'm pretty sure at least on an early 60's Oldsmobile.

nate

[Johnnywiffer]

I think that adjusting the bands probably wouldn't hurt. Lotsa guys on here can tell you how. I received this from a person about 10 years ago but since the trans' have not changed, it still applies:

The special tools are a little easier to use, but regular shop tools work just fine. I would be a little concerned about a shop that doesn't recognize that they are working on a Fordomatic in disquise!

Any 1/4" thick piece of flat stock will work for the front band spacer. Loosen the locknut two full turns so it doesn't get in the way and cause a drag when turning the screw. Back screw out, insert spacer, turn screw in until it contacts spacer, then tighten screw to 10 inch lbs. and back off 1 full turn. Tighten lock nut.

Loosen rear band lock nut, turn screw in, then tighten screw to 10 foot lbs. Back screw out 1 1/2 turns and tighten lock nut.

Re-read this and pay special attention to inch lbs. and foot lbs.

A couple of pix of the trans you are working on wouldn't hurt.

But my experience has been that when the car WILL go forward but NOT into reverse, it is usually a dirty valve body. I have cleaned 'em using only a MoToR Manual for instructions but obviously, a Studebaker shop manual would be best. You can get to the valve body after removing only the bottom pan so it does not require removing the trans to do it.

Just keep all the springs and balls in the correct places. The valves themselves will pretty much only fit in the correct locations. If you do the job yourself and it hasn't been done for a while, you'll be amazed at the amount of crud in the passages, tho it only takes a little to make a valve hang up. Good luck.

As for the PNDLR on the quadrant, all the early fluid coupling 4-speed Hydra-matic's had NDLR. (Not so sure about the REALLY early ones with a clutch.) No "P" on the quadrant. You just turned off the engine and parked it in "R". Of course, it would only start in "N". My aunt had a '52 Nash with that trans. You pulled the gearshift lever toward you to start the car(!). My grandfather's '50 'buck-tooth' Buick Dynaflow had PNDLR also. So many early auto trans had that series. If I'm not mistaken, '51 was the 1st year for Ford-O-Matic, so Fords used the PRNDL sequence first.

If so, you would have thot they would also have used that sequence on the Flight-O-Matic when Studebaker bought 'em. But I guess Studebaker didn't want to change, so we have the old sequence throughout the years.

John

[r1lark]

Ravoll,

I'm sure you have checked this, but another common (and luckily very easily fixed) reason that a Studebaker auto trans won't go into reverse is being low on transmission fluid.

Back in the early '80s when I first got into Studes, you still came across Studebakers parked in garages and the owner telling you "One day, it just stopped going into reverse". Most of the time, after sealing the deal (including getting the title<G>), a couple of quarts of tranny fluid later it could be backed out of the garage/shed and on the way home. Those were the good 'ole days!!

[kurtruk]

One advantage to the shift sequence was it easily allowed shifting back and forth between reverse and low to get unstuck from snow or mud.

[Jim B PEI]

All good advice. One thing, if it a 1963 GT (Gran Turismo) Hawk, it should have the overhead valve 6 2.8 litre (170), and that should have more than 85 hp even if it has a detuned lower-compression engine. Normally, they were rated 112 hp for most markets. If it is a 1953 coupe, hardtop or pillared, it would have the flathead six 2.8 litre (170) which was commonly 85 hp.

Another thing--does the transmission make a sort of soft buzzing or whistling sound? That is often a sign that it is low on fluid. You could also warm up the car and the transmission, and drive it a bit if possible to get the fluid circulating throughout and up to temperature, and then drain it and refill with fresh fluid, and do some more running. That 'might' free up a sticky valve. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think the Studebaker Flightomatic fill line is determined when the transmission is warm, and in "D" position with the brakes applied, at idle, and after putting in all gear positions. Someone will correct me if I have got it wrong.

Yet another thing that might be wrong with the transmission, is that the shifter mechanism is out of adjustment and/or something is blocking it from going just far enough to engage Reverse. A slightly bent piece? This has happened to me with other cars other than Studebakers. If the car is up on a hoist or is safely supported by four proper jack stands, you might be able to undo the shifter (if necessary) with the engine running to see if you can push the lever on the transmission manually far enough that it goes into reverse.

A six cylinder automatic is designed to start in 1st, shift to 2nd, and then shift to 3rd, due to the lesser power of the 6. Most of the time, you don't need a 1st gear with a V8, but you do with the 6. The V8 automatic is more or less the same unit but has had a change made in the valve body/springs to that it starts in 2nd, and shifts to 3rd, and is sometimes heavier duty. Since the V8 has a lot more torque, the Studebaker engineers made this change in 1956 to avoid a harsh shift 1 to 2 with a V8, and also for better gas mileage. Both transmissions have the sequence PNDLR. For a V8, you only get 1st from a stop, if you floor the gas pedal hard. For both a 6 and a V8, you can manually select 1st gear and lock it in by switching to L from a stop. If you have a transmission that starts in second, and shifts once to 3rd, it sounds like a V8 transmission has been substituted somewhere through the years.

The second Studebaker automatic from 1956 through 1966 is a B-W (Borg-Warner) design that is more-or less the Ford automatic design for the same period, with a few changes such as the gear quadrant positioning, and the second gear start. Other companies such as AMC American motors used the Ford design. A later version of the Ford automatic had a dual D position--the regular D had 1-2-3, and the D2 position started in second for 2-3, just like the Studebakers. Anyone who has looked at an older Ford should transmission should recognize that the similar nature, and parts shouldn't be a problem.

Good luck with your friend's car!

[Tom Bredehoft]

Jim is correct on how to check fluid in the transmission, hot, in drive, block the wheels, put the E brake on, and have someone stand on the brake pedal. The dip stick only measures one pint low, and runs out of stick, so add oil a little at a time till you get some on the stick.

[Studebakercenteroforegon]

While I could not be sure about an "Export" package, everyone should remember that the 1963 and 1964 6 cylinder automatics were not Flightomatics but Model 35 Automatics - very different.

[Ravoll]

Alright guys.Thanks for all the good tips,and info.Will pass it on.

As far as english manuals,won't be problem for me.Growning up in South Texas was is a plus,even with a Texas edumacation,but the car owner is from Siberia so I will have to translate.

Another note: He said that sometimes when he parks on a hill ,puts it in reverse and lets it roll backwards,he can feel reverse trying to pull, but not always .Had me also thinking valve body sludge.
And yep ,I checked the fluid level , warm ,at an idle, but not in gear.Will do it again.

As far as the 85 HP rating : The German/Swiss HP rating is DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm) measured at the drive wheels,whereas SAE is at the crankshaft.The car was imported last month from Switzerland,so that would explain the differences in the ratings.
I will try to get some pics up this week.
And thanks all

[Ravoll]

Hi all,
Have checked the tranny fluid ,warm,in drive.Had to add a little bit but not much.Still no reverse.
Did notice though, that when its cold ,it has reverse,somewhat.Can back out of the garage and about 20 feet after that ,then ,nothing.
In the few feet that it did backup,it didn't seem to be pulling very strong.
Anymore ideas .I think it's just burned up is all .Getting parts to rebuilding this tranny here in Germany will not be easy ,and certainly not cheap.Is it possible to purchase a general overhaul kit anywhere?

[StudeRich]

Your problem is mainly the internal Seals in the Reverse Clutch Drum are Baked, so it is leaking internally a very common problem after 48 years.

The steel rings, seals and gaskets are available in a kit with or without clutches and bands, there is sometimes an ad in our Monthly Publication Turning Wheels for them.