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'53 Commander Coupe - driveshaft is not the Beach Boys "Good Vibrations"

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  • #16
    Keep up the good work, I've been following this thread for a while hoping you get an answer so I can ride on your success and solve my drive train vibration issues. My engine/trans was mounted at steep angle as well, and as you said, I'm sure it was for trans clearance. I have now switched from a turbo 350 to a T5 and was able to mount the engine/trans at a 4 degree angle which matches the carb mounting surface on the intake manifold (sbc), and now even have room to mount up a 1/4" shim under the trans mount to decrease the the angle of the engine if required and still have trans tunnel clearance. In an earlier experiment I lowered the center bearing about 30mm and that really helped my vibration problem...it went from severe to mild, but I did not eliminate it all together. Hopefully, you will figure it out by the time I get to my own driveshaft issues. BTW, I like the way you pass your time...channel a 40 Ford and running a coupe on b'ville salt flats! Show us some more pictures of that coupe...it's killer, and is that a Hemi valve cover I see?...do tell. Thanks. Junior.
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    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by junior View Post
      Keep up the good work, I've been following this thread for a while hoping you get an answer so I can ride on your success and solve my drive train vibration issues. My engine/trans was mounted at steep angle as well, and as you said, I'm sure it was for trans clearance. I have now switched from a turbo 350 to a T5 and was able to mount the engine/trans at a 4 degree angle which matches the carb mounting surface on the intake manifold (sbc), and now even have room to mount up a 1/4" shim under the trans mount to decrease the the angle of the engine if required and still have trans tunnel clearance. In an earlier experiment I lowered the center bearing about 30mm and that really helped my vibration problem...it went from severe to mild, but I did not eliminate it all together. Hopefully, you will figure it out by the time I get to my own driveshaft issues. BTW, I like the way you pass your time...channel a 40 Ford and running a coupe on b'ville salt flats! Show us some more pictures of that coupe...it's killer, and is that a Hemi valve cover I see?...do tell. Thanks. Junior.
      Since you have your engine at 4 deg, you might want to look at kicking up the pinion angle to match or at least up at 3 degrees. One thing I didn't mention is that the spring wrap with even only a 232 in. V-8 with a light acceleration was significant. Then also check the phasing. If pinion and engine are near the same angle, the two shafts should certainly be in corect phasing and rebalanced.

      With a T5 being much longer than the original transmission, why not use a one-piece driveshaft? This would be especially true if your front shaft has been shortened and is less than about 18" long. Studebaker learned this when they went to a single piece driveshaft with a longer transmission tailshaft.

      June 2010 Hot Rod Magazine:

      http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicl...upe/index.html.
      sigpic
      Old Car Guy....New Stude Guy

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      • #18
        Don't know if it could be a factor but I recall a mention of frame flexing(sagging) on the hardtop models or as I understand it. If that be the case may increase downward angle on engine. What are operating angles of the two rear joints? I have a t-56 with two piece with a short front section and have no vibration except under hard acceleration. . Basically what I did was adjusted engine up as far as I could and changed the carrier to a pillar type on plate added to the crossmember. I got it to less than 1 degree as I remember on the front joint . I got the last two to equal angles and in phase. The pillar type seems to do a better job of absorbing vibration. Driving normally it is smooth but the rear springs allow to much body drop and axle windup and it will rough up under hard acceleration from a dead stop. AS I said earlier the carrier end is below the pinion so body drop and axle windup really increases the operating angles on the rear shaft. I had intended to remedy the problem but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I fear I may create another problem as it already oversteers a bit and stiffening the rear springs may worsen it. Solve one problem and create another.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by leyrret View Post
          Don't know if it could be a factor but I recall a mention of frame flexing(sagging) on the hardtop models or as I understand it. If that be the case may increase downward angle on engine. What are operating angles of the two rear joints? I have a t-56 with two piece with a short front section and have no vibration except under hard acceleration. . Basically what I did was adjusted engine up as far as I could and changed the carrier to a pillar type on plate added to the crossmember. I got it to less than 1 degree as I remember on the front joint . I got the last two to equal angles and in phase. The pillar type seems to do a better job of absorbing vibration. Driving normally it is smooth but the rear springs allow to much body drop and axle windup and it will rough up under hard acceleration from a dead stop. AS I said earlier the carrier end is below the pinion so body drop and axle windup really increases the operating angles on the rear shaft. I had intended to remedy the problem but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I fear I may create another problem as it already oversteers a bit and stiffening the rear springs may worsen it. Solve one problem and create another.
          The at-rest operating angle is about 1 degree with the pinion down. The spring wrap I observed was several degrees, so the operating angle is definitely more than 1 degree upon hard acceleration, although the at-rest pinion angle does reduce what it would have been (since the pinion is pointed down). The good fix for spring wrap is a traction bar, not a stiffer spring. I remember reading an article from an old magazine (online) where the Stude owner was drag racing the '53/'54 in '53/'54 and added traction bars to stop the rear wheel hop on acceleration, so the fix is not a new idea.....and that was on a car that eventually went 79 mph in the quarter!
          Last edited by irishjr; 04-02-2011, 04:37 AM.
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          Old Car Guy....New Stude Guy

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          • #20
            I was trying to avoid the expense of traction bars. The springs are or were new HD but never act as such. I have a set of old overload leaves that sort of resemble traction bars and the car still doesn't doesn't behave to my liking. I have the leafs and center pins here to do the spring thing so I can remove the overloads with no real expense. I'll just have to experiment a bit.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by irishjr View Post
              Since you have your engine at 4 deg, you might want to look at kicking up the pinion angle to match or at least up at 3 degrees. One thing I didn't mention is that the spring wrap with even only a 232 in. V-8 with a light acceleration was significant. Then also check the phasing. If pinion and engine are near the same angle, the two shafts should certainly be in corect phasing and rebalanced.

              With a T5 being much longer than the original transmission, why not use a one-piece driveshaft? This would be especially true if your front shaft has been shortened and is less than about 18" long. Studebaker learned this when they went to a single piece driveshaft with a longer transmission tailshaft.

              June 2010 Hot Rod Magazine:

              http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicl...upe/index.html.
              Yes, I know I'm going to have to change my pinion angle, and have thought about a single driveshaft, but do not want to make the driveshaft tunnel larger because that means ripping out the glued-in carpet that is in perfect condition. I have read that there will be clearance problems with the driveshaft hitting the tunnel unless its enlarged, but perhaps running a mild 283 I can get away with a small diameter shaft that won't have any clearance issues. I was kind of hoping to reuse the 2pce setup because I had it machined/straightened/balanced and new u-joints and center bearing replaced not even 1000 miles ago...the caso in me you know. I will have to do some measuring and weigh my options...right now I'm still sorting out the clutch/linkage issues. I haven't even gotten around to seeing if the turbo 350 yoke will fit on the T5 output shaft. As for your Plymouth...I was showing the photo you posted to my daughter last night and got to thinking 'I think I've seen this car somewhere'...searched my memory banks couldn't place it, now I feel stupid, after all how many HRM feature cars are hemi powered 33 Plymouth coupes? Very cool, and the fact you drive the wheels off of it doubles the cool factor. Good work! Regards, Junior.
              sigpic
              1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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              • #22
                Junior, you won't need to raise the tunnel if you simply use a 1 or 1.5 degree wedge under the rear spring perch. If you dip the nose of the pinion down ever so slightly, you will not have clearance issues. I've been running mine as such with a one piece drive shaft for 20 plus years without issue.
                sals54

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by sals54 View Post
                  Junior, you won't need to raise the tunnel if you simply use a 1 or 1.5 degree wedge under the rear spring perch. If you dip the nose of the pinion down ever so slightly, you will not have clearance issues. I've been running mine as such with a one piece drive shaft for 20 plus years without issue.
                  What is the engine incline angle vs. the pinion? Junior has the engine at 4 degrees down inthe back.
                  sigpic
                  Old Car Guy....New Stude Guy

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                  • #24
                    I read the paper that Pat Dilling posted a link to, and I'm having a huge mental block here. You know how you've been told something your whole life, and then someone tells you something completely opposite your brain just flat-out tells you it's all wrong. If I understand the artical, and what Sals54 is saying, if my engine/trans points down 4 degrees, then I could set my pinion angle to point up 4 degrees (this seems right), or I could set the pinion angle to point down 4 degrees (this seems totally wrong). If I set it to point down 4 degrees this would allow me to run a single driveshaft without tunnel mods? This just seems so backwards. Any thoughts? Sorry for the tangent on this post, but its kinda all sorta related isn't it? Thanks, Junior.

                    http://www.airridetalk.com/articles/...-enigma_2.html
                    sigpic
                    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by sals54 View Post
                      Junior, you won't need to raise the tunnel if you simply use a 1 or 1.5 degree wedge under the rear spring perch. If you dip the nose of the pinion down ever so slightly, you will not have clearance issues. I've been running mine as such with a one piece drive shaft for 20 plus years without issue.
                      What dia. driveshaft are you using?

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                      • #26
                        is the vibration load dependent? Does it require acceleration, or is it just as strong when coasting?
                        With the car in the air were there motion of the trans, diff nose, or center support when running in gear at various "road speeds"

                        Did each u-joint move smoothly and very easily in 2 directions? A "tight" u-joint causes vibration somewhat like severe unbalance ( 1x driveshaft speed). "tight" u-joints don;t necessarily "break in." During installation Smacking the forged yoke (not the tube) with a brass or lead hammer is often necessary to shock the caps out against the clips, and release the cross/trunnion for necessary free operation.
                        The soft center support bearing mount is most vulnerable to tight u-joints (1X driveshaft rotation), or, similarly the "secondary couple" of a U-joint transmitting big torque while at an angle (sX criveshaft rotation).

                        If the vibration is the pinion nose bobbing up and down in response to u-joint forces, the front portion of the leaf spring can be stiffened using spring clamps like these -
                        http://www.jegs.com/i/Mr-Gasket/720/...ductId=1196571
                        Some folks double them up.
                        -

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by johnod View Post
                          What dia. driveshaft are you using?
                          Right now the factory 2 piece one....rear shaft = 2.5" dia. Junior.
                          sigpic
                          1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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                          • #28
                            Obviously I am not the only one with driveshaft vibration issues! This is getting to be a really interesting thread.

                            Refering to another thread......at least TRAILER QUEENS don't have driveshaft vibration problems.
                            Last edited by irishjr; 04-07-2011, 12:45 PM.
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                            Old Car Guy....New Stude Guy

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                            • #29
                              Sorry to take so long to respond. The driveshaft in the car now is 3-1/2 inch or better. It came out of a 70's Lincoln, I think. Its pretty large. I've used a driveshaft as big as 4 inch diameter. I don't know where that one came from. Each were taken from another car or truck and shortened to use in my car. I had to change it twice cuz I changed out the pumpkin in the Ford 9 inch and somehow I got one third member from a truck and the next one from a car. they have different flanges on them making one longer than the other. It made it a bit of a hassle to change out the gear ratio. Now I make sure the third member matches the style in the car before I buy it.
                              sals54

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by irishjr View Post
                                Got the newly balanced driveshaft in place (90 deg. out of phase as per original) and things were improved but still vibrating.

                                Put car on lift and tried adding shims under rear engine mount (3/8") to reduce the 7.5 deg....no change.

                                Removed shims and lowered carrier to lower set of holes on pass. side......no change.

                                Put stand under rear end and ran in drive in high gear......WHOA, rear wheels are noticeably bent. (Forgot that tire mounter in Tenn. told me that they were bent and to put them on rear.

                                Put bent rims on front and drove home. Car still vibrating (as expected) but cannot determine if driveshaft is any of the cause.

                                Ordered new wheels from Summit (15x6 w/ 4" backspace - #WVI-20-561204). Not going to do anything concerning driveshaft until I have the new wheels on the car!

                                Going back to working on channeling my '40 Ford!
                                UPDATE!

                                I got the wheels and made sure they were true before I painted them and had the tires mounted.

                                I went to a local Place (Western Tire and Auto) who has a Hunter 9700 machine. I asked them to check the balance of the tires that were not on bent rims as well as mount the new rims.

                                WARNING!: Tell the young guns at the auto center that the lug nuts on the driver's side are left hand threads. They broke two on the rear!

                                Three of the tires balanced just fine. One was out of round to an extent that exceeded the Hunter 9700 recommended limits.

                                Coker is sending a new tire.

                                Vibration is improved, but not to the extent that I expect.

                                I will update when I get the new tire.
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                                Old Car Guy....New Stude Guy

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