Retrofitting a later swinging pedal assembly on an early Lark?

[sbca96]

OK, this one seems like a question for Alan, but I am sure there are a host
of people that have either done this, or looked into it. I recently have been
assisting a virgin Studebaker owner get the ball rolling on his 1960 Lark VI.
It has a Chevy 350 with a (as I happened to notice) TH700R4 (which could
have been installed better). The car still has the tiny VI brakes and that is
one area we are going to improve on. I have most of the parts left from
the original Mustang GT brakes that donned the Avanti before upgrading to
the massive 13" Cobra dual piston caliper brakes. Since I know the power
setup on the Avanti worked well, I figured it was best for him to adapt the
later swinging pedal assembly, booster, and dual master.

I ASSUME a swap would be pretty straight forward, Studebaker historically
did not have much money, and most running changes were done with little
or no changes to existing parts......

So, whats involved? Is this a non-starter, or a easy 30 minute job?

Tom

[(S)]

The late Lark pedal assembly depends on the firewall, dash and steering column for support. In a 60 Lark all 3 of these are in a slightly different place/ the angle of them is different. I do not think it is a terrible situation, and can probably be done. I'd say use your angle finder and take measurements and you'll see what is involved. A 63 parts car or parts from it (including the fire wall support) would come in very handy. Original stude disc brakes need the late spindles.

[N8N]

If the car currently does not have power brakes, I'd be tempted to simply do a dual master cylinder conversion using Jim Turner's bracket and being done with it. I really like the solid pedal feel you get from a frame mounted master cylinder. Unless the owner of the car is of limited physical strength, the manual brakes may be perfectly adequate and I far prefer the feel of good manual brakes to any power assisted setup that I have ever driven. I don't have any experience with manual discs on a Stude, but I do know that people have reported finding the Turner discs to work well without power assist, so your Ford brakes may also work equally well, assuming that the rotor size is the same or larger and the caliper piston size is comparable.

nate

[studegary]

The Lark firewall was redesigned for the 1961 model in conjunction with the swing pedals.
I have owned Studebakers that were converted from the floor M/C to a firewall mount dual M/C system. They worked well. I did not do the conversions so I do not know how much was involved with the conversion.
I would just convert that Lark to V8 brakes and make sure that the whole system is in good shape.

[sbca96]

Original stude disc brakes need the late spindles.

Funny you mention that, I was going to post above that I installed Stude discs on a
'60 Hawk and didnt need the later spindles. The back of the early spindles has each
hole counterbored and the stock disc brake bracket has bosses that fit into them. I
just bolted them on at the time, it wasnt until many years later I was told that I was
not able to do it. They say a hummingbird shouldnt be able to fly, but no one told it.

If the car currently does not have power brakes, I'd be tempted to simply do a dual master cylinder conversion using Jim Turner's bracket and being done with it. I really like the solid pedal feel you get from a frame mounted master cylinder. Unless the owner of the car is of limited physical strength, the manual brakes may be perfectly adequate and I far prefer the feel of good manual brakes to any power assisted setup that I have ever driven. I don't have any experience with manual discs on a Stude, but I do know that people have reported finding the Turner discs to work well without power assist, so your Ford brakes may also work equally well, assuming that the rotor size is the same or larger and the caliper piston size is comparable.
nate

It might work without assist, I really do not know. I know that you can not use
manual discs with a swinging pedal, but I ran manual discs on my Hawk for a
while. I figured that we could put together a swinging pedal setup on the car
to match the Avantis setup if the swinging pedal bolts in easy enough. The fall
back plan is to go with the Turner under-the-floor dual.

I told him I wont sell him the setup unless he installs a dual master. Not after
what I experienced when a rebuilt rear wheel cylinder failed on my Hawk on
a freeway offramp. Bad time to find the parking brake was mis-adjusted ....

The GT caliper has a much larger piston, which would effect non-power use
and has a much larger pad. I would have to do some research to see how it
would help or hinder.

Tom

[N8N]

larger piston should make the pedal effort go down at the expense of a longer pedal stroke. Pad size isn't really relevant to pedal effort vs. brake torque.

nate

[52 Ragtop]

Tom,
(quote) "I know that you can not use manual discs with a swinging pedal,"

Why do you say that? In my "opinion" you are wrong, because: the pedal ratio is different in a maual vs power brake pedal. There is also a sleeve that you can insert into the M/C so you do not have the lonw pedal as N8N described. The adjustment between the pedal and the M/C is critical. I had a 62 Daytona convertible, that had my discs on the front, and a dual NON power M/C on the firewall. The car stopped just fine.
There are no engineering facts that support what you posted. Pedal pressure is determined by both the bore of the M/C, pedal ratio, and the size of the rear wheel cylinders (or calipers)

Jim

Jim

[sbca96]

There are no engineering facts that support what you posted. Pedal pressure is determined by both the bore of the M/C, pedal ratio, and the size of the rear wheel cylinders (or calipers)
Jim

1960 Hawk, a four wheel drum car, installed Stude discs front, the matching rear
drum assembly for disc car, obviously no booster, stopped fine, no issues in quite
a few thousand miles of use.

1964 Lark Daytona, a four wheel drum car, installed Stude discs front, the matching
rear drum assembly for disc car, no booster .. pedal was hard as a rock, could not
get it to stop worth a damn. Added a booster from a Jeep, stopped on a dime.

Perhaps no "engineering facts" .. just the experience of attempting it. This was a
number of years ago, I remember being dumbfounded when the Lark was so hard
to stop : since I had run the setup on my Hawk for a while without any problems.

What rear brakes did you have on the Lark? Were they the stock drums? Did you
use a proportioning valve or were you simply stopping with the rear drums? I see
from your profile that you are Jim Turner, so perhaps the caliper that you use for
your front setup requires considerably less pedal pressure than the original dual
piston Stude caliper. I was refering to stock stude vs stock stude, not your setup
or mine. I have not attempted to use my setup without power assist, simply due
to the fact my Avanti had a booster.

Tom

[Kurt]

Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??

[sbca96]

Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??

Thats an interesting idea, but how does the Champ differ? My dad used to
have one, but I never needed to work up under the dash. He got an assembly
already, not sure from what model, but they even torched out a section of the
firewall with the bolt pattern / reinforcement plate. I met him at a car show
and checked out his loot. He got the pedal, bushings, plate and large stamped
bracket that goes from the dash to the firewall the pedal bolts into, along with
the loop for the steering column.

Tom

[irish]

Simple, for the same reason you will have problems using them from a Lark. The firewall was redesigned and braced on the Champ when they started using swing pedals. Having dealt with both types of pedals, IMHO it's a mistake to switch to swing pedals, the 'through-the-floor' pedals give you better leverage , they last longer (no worn out bushings and twisted pedals) and are a much more rigid system. Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker.

Joe

Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??

[sbca96]

Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker. Joe

Except for that blasted single master cylinder.....

Tom

[52 Ragtop]

Tom,
Your Hawk would be fine, under the floor M/C, The 62 Daytona had the stock rear drum brakes, no propvalve, 68 Mustang (I think) M/C.
The reason your 64 would not stop worth a hoot is because the stock Stude discs DO require a booster. If you've ever had the booster go out on your Avanti, you will have a pedal as hard as a rock, but you will be unable to stop the car! But, again, there is the pedal ratio that makes a BIG difference too.

BTW, your Avanti was originally a black 3 spd? What vin number? as mine was also a Black 3 spd #1780

Jim

[52 Ragtop]

Quote Originally Posted by irish View Post
Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker. Joe

Except for that blasted single master cylinder.....Tom

Agreed on BOTH points! on the under floor M/C, there is NO play between the M/C and the pedal! no flex at all. The reason that the factory installed that "skimpy" strap between the M/C & the pedal was for support when you stood on the brakes with both feet and prayed that the blasted thing would stop WITHOUT blowing a wheel cylinder or a hose! <G>

Jim

[sbca96]

Tom,
Your Hawk would be fine, under the floor M/C, The 62 Daytona had the stock rear drum brakes, no propvalve, 68 Mustang (I think) M/C.
The reason your 64 would not stop worth a hoot is because the stock Stude discs DO require a booster. If you've ever had the booster go out on your Avanti, you will have a pedal as hard as a rock, but you will be unable to stop the car! But, again, there is the pedal ratio that makes a BIG difference too.

BTW, your Avanti was originally a black 3 spd? What vin number? as mine was also a Black 3 spd #1780

Jim

Thats the thing, both the 60 Hawk, and the 64 Lark were running a Studebaker
disc setup without a booster, thats why I made the statement you cant run the
manual disc with a swinging pedal. Both cars had the correct rear drum setup.
The only difference between the two was the location of the master cylinder.
The pressure requirement of the brakes would be the same.

Your '62 I fear might have been stopping with the rear drums, and the discs in
along for the ride. If you kept the stock size rear wheel cylinders, the system
could have been actuating those first, and barely moving the front calipers. Its
possible and wouldnt be really noticable until you slam on the brakes.

I dont recall the VIN on the Avanti, I am at work right now, I can check when I
get home tonight.

Tom