Announcement

Collapse

Get more Tips, Specs and Technical Data!

Did you know... this Forum is a service of the Studebaker Drivers Club? For more technical tips, specifications, history and tech data, visit the Tech Tips page at the SDC Homepage: www.studebakerdriversclub.com/tips.asp
See more
See less

Retrofitting a later swinging pedal assembly on an early Lark?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • N8N
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim B PEI View Post
    FWIW, having driven a 60 Hawk and some other Hawks, lots of 40-50s Studebaker cars, and a bunch of Kaisers versus some swing pedal Larks, I MUCH prefer the feel of the through the floor type. Now, if there was a reasonable way (simple bolt in) to have a through the floor dual master cylinder with a cowl mounted remote filler, I go for that!
    JDP sold me a Mitsubishi (I think?) MC that is supposed to be a bolt on for the Turner MC bracket and has the same size bore as the original MC and it does use a remote reservoir. I have not installed it yet because I've had other things to do and the original single MC is still working well.

    nate

    Leave a comment:


  • Johnnywiffer
    replied
    Fifty-five was the 1st year for power brakes in Studebakers. However, at one time I had a '54 Starliner on which I installed a power brake booster and lines from a '55. As I recall, it had a different feel but I think it stopped no better than before.

    So I really don't see a need for a power booster with the '54-on brakes. My LC stops just fine without one. And being a "leave well enough alone" or "don't fix what ain't broke" kinda guy, I'd NEVER attempt to install the hanging pedal in a car not designed for one.

    My .02 worth.

    John

    Leave a comment:


  • sbca96
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim B PEI View Post
    Now, if there was a reasonable way (simple bolt in) to have a through the floor dual master cylinder with a cowl mounted remote filler, I go for that!
    Before I totalled my Hawk, my plan was to add a second master NEXT to the stock
    master, from what I could tell, it would only require longer bolts through the frame
    and linkage to drive the second master. But that does not get you power assist. It
    is possible, based on my experience with my '60 Hawk, it isnt needed.

    Tom

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim B PEI
    replied
    FWIW, having driven a 60 Hawk and some other Hawks, lots of 40-50s Studebaker cars, and a bunch of Kaisers versus some swing pedal Larks, I MUCH prefer the feel of the through the floor type. Now, if there was a reasonable way (simple bolt in) to have a through the floor dual master cylinder with a cowl mounted remote filler, I go for that!

    Leave a comment:


  • sbca96
    replied
    Originally posted by 52 Ragtop View Post
    Tom,
    Your Hawk would be fine, under the floor M/C, The 62 Daytona had the stock rear drum brakes, no propvalve, 68 Mustang (I think) M/C.
    The reason your 64 would not stop worth a hoot is because the stock Stude discs DO require a booster. If you've ever had the booster go out on your Avanti, you will have a pedal as hard as a rock, but you will be unable to stop the car! But, again, there is the pedal ratio that makes a BIG difference too.

    BTW, your Avanti was originally a black 3 spd? What vin number? as mine was also a Black 3 spd #1780

    Jim
    Thats the thing, both the 60 Hawk, and the 64 Lark were running a Studebaker
    disc setup without a booster, thats why I made the statement you cant run the
    manual disc with a swinging pedal. Both cars had the correct rear drum setup.
    The only difference between the two was the location of the master cylinder.
    The pressure requirement of the brakes would be the same.

    Your '62 I fear might have been stopping with the rear drums, and the discs in
    along for the ride. If you kept the stock size rear wheel cylinders, the system
    could have been actuating those first, and barely moving the front calipers. Its
    possible and wouldnt be really noticable until you slam on the brakes.

    I dont recall the VIN on the Avanti, I am at work right now, I can check when I
    get home tonight.

    Tom

    Leave a comment:


  • 52 Ragtop
    replied
    Quote Originally Posted by irish View Post
    Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker. Joe

    Except for that blasted single master cylinder.....Tom

    Agreed on BOTH points! on the under floor M/C, there is NO play between the M/C and the pedal! no flex at all. The reason that the factory installed that "skimpy" strap between the M/C & the pedal was for support when you stood on the brakes with both feet and prayed that the blasted thing would stop WITHOUT blowing a wheel cylinder or a hose! <G>

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • 52 Ragtop
    replied
    Tom,
    Your Hawk would be fine, under the floor M/C, The 62 Daytona had the stock rear drum brakes, no propvalve, 68 Mustang (I think) M/C.
    The reason your 64 would not stop worth a hoot is because the stock Stude discs DO require a booster. If you've ever had the booster go out on your Avanti, you will have a pedal as hard as a rock, but you will be unable to stop the car! But, again, there is the pedal ratio that makes a BIG difference too.

    BTW, your Avanti was originally a black 3 spd? What vin number? as mine was also a Black 3 spd #1780

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • sbca96
    replied
    Originally posted by irish View Post
    Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker. Joe
    Except for that blasted single master cylinder.....

    Tom

    Leave a comment:


  • irish
    replied
    Simple, for the same reason you will have problems using them from a Lark. The firewall was redesigned and braced on the Champ when they started using swing pedals. Having dealt with both types of pedals, IMHO it's a mistake to switch to swing pedals, the 'through-the-floor' pedals give you better leverage , they last longer (no worn out bushings and twisted pedals) and are a much more rigid system. Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker.

    Joe

    Originally posted by Kurt View Post
    Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??
    Last edited by irish; 11-15-2010, 07:12 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • sbca96
    replied
    Originally posted by Kurt View Post
    Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??
    Thats an interesting idea, but how does the Champ differ? My dad used to
    have one, but I never needed to work up under the dash. He got an assembly
    already, not sure from what model, but they even torched out a section of the
    firewall with the bolt pattern / reinforcement plate. I met him at a car show
    and checked out his loot. He got the pedal, bushings, plate and large stamped
    bracket that goes from the dash to the firewall the pedal bolts into, along with
    the loop for the steering column.

    Tom

    Leave a comment:


  • Kurt
    replied
    Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??

    Leave a comment:


  • sbca96
    replied
    Originally posted by 52 Ragtop View Post
    There are no engineering facts that support what you posted. Pedal pressure is determined by both the bore of the M/C, pedal ratio, and the size of the rear wheel cylinders (or calipers)
    Jim
    1960 Hawk, a four wheel drum car, installed Stude discs front, the matching rear
    drum assembly for disc car, obviously no booster, stopped fine, no issues in quite
    a few thousand miles of use.

    1964 Lark Daytona, a four wheel drum car, installed Stude discs front, the matching
    rear drum assembly for disc car, no booster .. pedal was hard as a rock, could not
    get it to stop worth a damn. Added a booster from a Jeep, stopped on a dime.

    Perhaps no "engineering facts" .. just the experience of attempting it. This was a
    number of years ago, I remember being dumbfounded when the Lark was so hard
    to stop : since I had run the setup on my Hawk for a while without any problems.

    What rear brakes did you have on the Lark? Were they the stock drums? Did you
    use a proportioning valve or were you simply stopping with the rear drums? I see
    from your profile that you are Jim Turner, so perhaps the caliper that you use for
    your front setup requires considerably less pedal pressure than the original dual
    piston Stude caliper. I was refering to stock stude vs stock stude, not your setup
    or mine. I have not attempted to use my setup without power assist, simply due
    to the fact my Avanti had a booster.

    Tom

    Leave a comment:


  • 52 Ragtop
    replied
    Tom,
    (quote) "I know that you can not use manual discs with a swinging pedal,"

    Why do you say that? In my "opinion" you are wrong, because: the pedal ratio is different in a maual vs power brake pedal. There is also a sleeve that you can insert into the M/C so you do not have the lonw pedal as N8N described. The adjustment between the pedal and the M/C is critical. I had a 62 Daytona convertible, that had my discs on the front, and a dual NON power M/C on the firewall. The car stopped just fine.
    There are no engineering facts that support what you posted. Pedal pressure is determined by both the bore of the M/C, pedal ratio, and the size of the rear wheel cylinders (or calipers)

    Jim

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • N8N
    replied
    larger piston should make the pedal effort go down at the expense of a longer pedal stroke. Pad size isn't really relevant to pedal effort vs. brake torque.

    nate

    Leave a comment:


  • sbca96
    replied
    Originally posted by (S) View Post
    Original stude disc brakes need the late spindles.
    Funny you mention that, I was going to post above that I installed Stude discs on a
    '60 Hawk and didnt need the later spindles. The back of the early spindles has each
    hole counterbored and the stock disc brake bracket has bosses that fit into them. I
    just bolted them on at the time, it wasnt until many years later I was told that I was
    not able to do it. They say a hummingbird shouldnt be able to fly, but no one told it.

    Originally posted by N8N View Post
    If the car currently does not have power brakes, I'd be tempted to simply do a dual master cylinder conversion using Jim Turner's bracket and being done with it. I really like the solid pedal feel you get from a frame mounted master cylinder. Unless the owner of the car is of limited physical strength, the manual brakes may be perfectly adequate and I far prefer the feel of good manual brakes to any power assisted setup that I have ever driven. I don't have any experience with manual discs on a Stude, but I do know that people have reported finding the Turner discs to work well without power assist, so your Ford brakes may also work equally well, assuming that the rotor size is the same or larger and the caliper piston size is comparable.
    nate
    It might work without assist, I really do not know. I know that you can not use
    manual discs with a swinging pedal, but I ran manual discs on my Hawk for a
    while. I figured that we could put together a swinging pedal setup on the car
    to match the Avantis setup if the swinging pedal bolts in easy enough. The fall
    back plan is to go with the Turner under-the-floor dual.

    I told him I wont sell him the setup unless he installs a dual master. Not after
    what I experienced when a rebuilt rear wheel cylinder failed on my Hawk on
    a freeway offramp. Bad time to find the parking brake was mis-adjusted ....

    The GT caliper has a much larger piston, which would effect non-power use
    and has a much larger pad. I would have to do some research to see how it
    would help or hinder.

    Tom

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X