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Retrofitting a later swinging pedal assembly on an early Lark?

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  • Retrofitting a later swinging pedal assembly on an early Lark?

    OK, this one seems like a question for Alan, but I am sure there are a host
    of people that have either done this, or looked into it. I recently have been
    assisting a virgin Studebaker owner get the ball rolling on his 1960 Lark VI.
    It has a Chevy 350 with a (as I happened to notice) TH700R4 (which could
    have been installed better). The car still has the tiny VI brakes and that is
    one area we are going to improve on. I have most of the parts left from
    the original Mustang GT brakes that donned the Avanti before upgrading to
    the massive 13" Cobra dual piston caliper brakes. Since I know the power
    setup on the Avanti worked well, I figured it was best for him to adapt the
    later swinging pedal assembly, booster, and dual master.

    I ASSUME a swap would be pretty straight forward, Studebaker historically
    did not have much money, and most running changes were done with little
    or no changes to existing parts......

    So, whats involved? Is this a non-starter, or a easy 30 minute job?

    Tom
    '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
    Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
    I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

  • #2
    The late Lark pedal assembly depends on the firewall, dash and steering column for support. In a 60 Lark all 3 of these are in a slightly different place/ the angle of them is different. I do not think it is a terrible situation, and can probably be done. I'd say use your angle finder and take measurements and you'll see what is involved. A 63 parts car or parts from it (including the fire wall support) would come in very handy. Original stude disc brakes need the late spindles.

    Comment


    • #3
      If the car currently does not have power brakes, I'd be tempted to simply do a dual master cylinder conversion using Jim Turner's bracket and being done with it. I really like the solid pedal feel you get from a frame mounted master cylinder. Unless the owner of the car is of limited physical strength, the manual brakes may be perfectly adequate and I far prefer the feel of good manual brakes to any power assisted setup that I have ever driven. I don't have any experience with manual discs on a Stude, but I do know that people have reported finding the Turner discs to work well without power assist, so your Ford brakes may also work equally well, assuming that the rotor size is the same or larger and the caliper piston size is comparable.

      nate
      --
      55 Commander Starlight
      http://members.cox.net/njnagel

      Comment


      • #4
        The Lark firewall was redesigned for the 1961 model in conjunction with the swing pedals.
        I have owned Studebakers that were converted from the floor M/C to a firewall mount dual M/C system. They worked well. I did not do the conversions so I do not know how much was involved with the conversion.
        I would just convert that Lark to V8 brakes and make sure that the whole system is in good shape.
        Gary L.
        Wappinger, NY

        SDC member since 1968
        Studebaker enthusiast much longer

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by (S) View Post
          Original stude disc brakes need the late spindles.
          Funny you mention that, I was going to post above that I installed Stude discs on a
          '60 Hawk and didnt need the later spindles. The back of the early spindles has each
          hole counterbored and the stock disc brake bracket has bosses that fit into them. I
          just bolted them on at the time, it wasnt until many years later I was told that I was
          not able to do it. They say a hummingbird shouldnt be able to fly, but no one told it.

          Originally posted by N8N View Post
          If the car currently does not have power brakes, I'd be tempted to simply do a dual master cylinder conversion using Jim Turner's bracket and being done with it. I really like the solid pedal feel you get from a frame mounted master cylinder. Unless the owner of the car is of limited physical strength, the manual brakes may be perfectly adequate and I far prefer the feel of good manual brakes to any power assisted setup that I have ever driven. I don't have any experience with manual discs on a Stude, but I do know that people have reported finding the Turner discs to work well without power assist, so your Ford brakes may also work equally well, assuming that the rotor size is the same or larger and the caliper piston size is comparable.
          nate
          It might work without assist, I really do not know. I know that you can not use
          manual discs with a swinging pedal, but I ran manual discs on my Hawk for a
          while. I figured that we could put together a swinging pedal setup on the car
          to match the Avantis setup if the swinging pedal bolts in easy enough. The fall
          back plan is to go with the Turner under-the-floor dual.

          I told him I wont sell him the setup unless he installs a dual master. Not after
          what I experienced when a rebuilt rear wheel cylinder failed on my Hawk on
          a freeway offramp. Bad time to find the parking brake was mis-adjusted ....

          The GT caliper has a much larger piston, which would effect non-power use
          and has a much larger pad. I would have to do some research to see how it
          would help or hinder.

          Tom
          '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
          Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
          http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
          I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

          Comment


          • #6
            larger piston should make the pedal effort go down at the expense of a longer pedal stroke. Pad size isn't really relevant to pedal effort vs. brake torque.

            nate
            --
            55 Commander Starlight
            http://members.cox.net/njnagel

            Comment


            • #7
              Tom,
              (quote) "I know that you can not use manual discs with a swinging pedal,"

              Why do you say that? In my "opinion" you are wrong, because: the pedal ratio is different in a maual vs power brake pedal. There is also a sleeve that you can insert into the M/C so you do not have the lonw pedal as N8N described. The adjustment between the pedal and the M/C is critical. I had a 62 Daytona convertible, that had my discs on the front, and a dual NON power M/C on the firewall. The car stopped just fine.
              There are no engineering facts that support what you posted. Pedal pressure is determined by both the bore of the M/C, pedal ratio, and the size of the rear wheel cylinders (or calipers)

              Jim

              Jim
              "We can't all be Heroes, Some us just need to stand on the curb and clap as they go by" Will Rogers

              We will provide the curb for you to stand on and clap!


              Indy Honor Flight www.IndyHonorFlight.org

              As of Veterans Day 2017, IHF has flown 2,450 WWII, Korean, and Vietnam Veterans to Washington DC at NO charge! to see
              their Memorials!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 52 Ragtop View Post
                There are no engineering facts that support what you posted. Pedal pressure is determined by both the bore of the M/C, pedal ratio, and the size of the rear wheel cylinders (or calipers)
                Jim
                1960 Hawk, a four wheel drum car, installed Stude discs front, the matching rear
                drum assembly for disc car, obviously no booster, stopped fine, no issues in quite
                a few thousand miles of use.

                1964 Lark Daytona, a four wheel drum car, installed Stude discs front, the matching
                rear drum assembly for disc car, no booster .. pedal was hard as a rock, could not
                get it to stop worth a damn. Added a booster from a Jeep, stopped on a dime.

                Perhaps no "engineering facts" .. just the experience of attempting it. This was a
                number of years ago, I remember being dumbfounded when the Lark was so hard
                to stop : since I had run the setup on my Hawk for a while without any problems.

                What rear brakes did you have on the Lark? Were they the stock drums? Did you
                use a proportioning valve or were you simply stopping with the rear drums? I see
                from your profile that you are Jim Turner, so perhaps the caliper that you use for
                your front setup requires considerably less pedal pressure than the original dual
                piston Stude caliper. I was refering to stock stude vs stock stude, not your setup
                or mine. I have not attempted to use my setup without power assist, simply due
                to the fact my Avanti had a booster.

                Tom
                '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??
                  1962 Champ

                  51 Commander 4 door

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kurt View Post
                    Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??
                    Thats an interesting idea, but how does the Champ differ? My dad used to
                    have one, but I never needed to work up under the dash. He got an assembly
                    already, not sure from what model, but they even torched out a section of the
                    firewall with the bolt pattern / reinforcement plate. I met him at a car show
                    and checked out his loot. He got the pedal, bushings, plate and large stamped
                    bracket that goes from the dash to the firewall the pedal bolts into, along with
                    the loop for the steering column.

                    Tom
                    '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                    Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                    I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Simple, for the same reason you will have problems using them from a Lark. The firewall was redesigned and braced on the Champ when they started using swing pedals. Having dealt with both types of pedals, IMHO it's a mistake to switch to swing pedals, the 'through-the-floor' pedals give you better leverage , they last longer (no worn out bushings and twisted pedals) and are a much more rigid system. Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker.

                      Joe

                      Originally posted by Kurt View Post
                      Why couldn't swing pedals from a Champ pick up be used??
                      Last edited by irish; 11-15-2010, 07:12 AM.
                      sigpic

                      1962 Daytona
                      1964 Cruiser
                      And a few others

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by irish View Post
                        Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker. Joe
                        Except for that blasted single master cylinder.....

                        Tom
                        '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                        Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                        http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                        I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Tom,
                          Your Hawk would be fine, under the floor M/C, The 62 Daytona had the stock rear drum brakes, no propvalve, 68 Mustang (I think) M/C.
                          The reason your 64 would not stop worth a hoot is because the stock Stude discs DO require a booster. If you've ever had the booster go out on your Avanti, you will have a pedal as hard as a rock, but you will be unable to stop the car! But, again, there is the pedal ratio that makes a BIG difference too.

                          BTW, your Avanti was originally a black 3 spd? What vin number? as mine was also a Black 3 spd #1780

                          Jim
                          "We can't all be Heroes, Some us just need to stand on the curb and clap as they go by" Will Rogers

                          We will provide the curb for you to stand on and clap!


                          Indy Honor Flight www.IndyHonorFlight.org

                          As of Veterans Day 2017, IHF has flown 2,450 WWII, Korean, and Vietnam Veterans to Washington DC at NO charge! to see
                          their Memorials!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Quote Originally Posted by irish View Post
                            Regardless of using manual vs. power or disc vs. drum the 'through-the-floor' pedals are the best on a Studebaker. Joe

                            Except for that blasted single master cylinder.....Tom

                            Agreed on BOTH points! on the under floor M/C, there is NO play between the M/C and the pedal! no flex at all. The reason that the factory installed that "skimpy" strap between the M/C & the pedal was for support when you stood on the brakes with both feet and prayed that the blasted thing would stop WITHOUT blowing a wheel cylinder or a hose! <G>

                            Jim
                            "We can't all be Heroes, Some us just need to stand on the curb and clap as they go by" Will Rogers

                            We will provide the curb for you to stand on and clap!


                            Indy Honor Flight www.IndyHonorFlight.org

                            As of Veterans Day 2017, IHF has flown 2,450 WWII, Korean, and Vietnam Veterans to Washington DC at NO charge! to see
                            their Memorials!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 52 Ragtop View Post
                              Tom,
                              Your Hawk would be fine, under the floor M/C, The 62 Daytona had the stock rear drum brakes, no propvalve, 68 Mustang (I think) M/C.
                              The reason your 64 would not stop worth a hoot is because the stock Stude discs DO require a booster. If you've ever had the booster go out on your Avanti, you will have a pedal as hard as a rock, but you will be unable to stop the car! But, again, there is the pedal ratio that makes a BIG difference too.

                              BTW, your Avanti was originally a black 3 spd? What vin number? as mine was also a Black 3 spd #1780

                              Jim
                              Thats the thing, both the 60 Hawk, and the 64 Lark were running a Studebaker
                              disc setup without a booster, thats why I made the statement you cant run the
                              manual disc with a swinging pedal. Both cars had the correct rear drum setup.
                              The only difference between the two was the location of the master cylinder.
                              The pressure requirement of the brakes would be the same.

                              Your '62 I fear might have been stopping with the rear drums, and the discs in
                              along for the ride. If you kept the stock size rear wheel cylinders, the system
                              could have been actuating those first, and barely moving the front calipers. Its
                              possible and wouldnt be really noticable until you slam on the brakes.

                              I dont recall the VIN on the Avanti, I am at work right now, I can check when I
                              get home tonight.

                              Tom
                              '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                              Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                              http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                              I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                              Comment

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