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2 questions: OD and turn signals

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  • 2 questions: OD and turn signals

    51 champion
    main question is about the overdrive.
    when i bought my car, it drove; albeit it was hard to keep running. after i towed it home, it was free-rolling, so i had to turn the wheels to the curb. something happened in the first week or two that made it so it's not moving now, and i can shift into all gears with the clutch pedal in or out.
    i was thinking the clutch might be stuck, but now i'm thinking maybe the overdrive is locked into some position. the OD pull was in (engaged) when i bought it; and when i went to look at it, played with it some, pulling it in and out. a couple weeks later when i brought it home, i pulled it out (disengaged) because that's how it's supposed to be. reading the shop manual, there's some kind of lock on the OD when it goes into reverse gear with OD engaged. i don't remember what position it was in when it was towed. it feels like it still shifts into gear, with or without the clutch, as it also clicks into each gear. i've got a buddy helping me try to figure it out, but he's a volvo guy and doesn't know much about studes. he's coming over tomorrow morning, so i'm hoping to have some ideas by then on what to check and how to check them.
    there's thoughts of bad timing or a vacuum leak on top of this, too, which we are also going to address tomorrow. we're thinking if there is a vacuum leak, it is at one of the carb gaskets (carter).

    second question is about turn signals...
    first of all, my front ones aren't connected. but it looks like there's two wires coming out from the bulb, but only one wire is connected to the switch. there's a hodgepodge of ground wires in both headlight cups; including a ground wire going from the passenger side to the drivers side to be grounded. so basically, i have no idea what i've got. i will be rewiring the headlights and turn signals over the winter, so i'd like to have an idea of what i'm looking at. yes, i have a wiring diagram.

    secondly, and most importantly... when i was replacing the under-dash wiring, i replaced the turn signal wires, too. one terminal on the circuit board fell off while i was soldering (the circuit board itself). since there was no electrical disconnection by this break, i thought i'd superglue it back together. super glue did not hold. so i thought it would only affect what the wire goes to; which is the indicator bulb and the front signal for the right side. that's not the case. it's not working in the rear now on that side anymore. i'd really hate to have to front $100 for a new switch assembly, so i'm wondering if anyone does repair of these circuit boards... or if there's replacement circuit boards available without having to buy the whole switch assembly. please inform.


    thanks

  • #2
    Overdrive....engaged is confusing. When the car is stationary it cannot be "in" overdrive. It must be going over 30 mph to go into OD. When it is stationary, and the handle is pulled out, OD is disabled. When the car is stationary and the handle is pushed in OD is enabled, that is, once the car exceeds 30 mph and the driver lets up on the gas, the engine slows down and OD becomes engaged. Once the car slows down below 25 or so, the OD disengages itself.

    Now, with the car stopped and the engine off, (and the car is on flat ground, no rolling) it is entirely possible that all gears can be shifted into with or without the clutch being engaged or disengaged. The only "Lock" is part of the overdrive, prohibiting the transmission from going into Reverse when it is IN overdrive, over 30 mph. Not likely to happen it it?

    Turns signals are a different problem, best handled by someone on site.

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    • #3
      If the "Circuit Board" you are talking about is the insulator board with the two fuses and the Flasher Unit on it, that fuse holder only has the input POWER wire from Solenoid for Brake Lights/and Dome Light and the Turn signal fuse and the flasher sockets, so has NO turn signal light wires at all! There is a flashing current output from the Flasher to the turn signal switch in the steering column that's all. No lights except the stop light switch output power wire and the dome light output wires through the fuse.
      StudeRich
      Second Generation Stude Driver,
      Proud '54 Starliner Owner

      Comment


      • #4
        The OD / reverse lockout function works like this: shift the transmission into reverse, and a cam on the first-reverse detent sector inside the transmission pushed the OD lockout rail back about a quarter-inch, which is enough to lock the planetary unit and to inhibit the OD pawl from moving, even if the solenoid should be energized. The lockout lever on the OD case basically accomplishes the same thing, by pulling on the rail from the back end.

        Nothing in the overdrive can inhibit the transmission from being shifted into any gear; it's a one-way street. It's quite normal to be able to shift a non-running car into any gear without depressing the clutch. Also, it's quite normal to not be able to shift into one or more gears with the engine off, because the gears in question may have come to a stop in a non-meshing position. Most commonly seen in low and reverse in non-synchro transmissions. Stepping on the clutch won't help, if the car isn't running, and is not on slope such that it can roll to displace a non-meshing gear. It's strictly the luck of the draw, and which gear stopped turning at what point when the car was shut down. It's not a symptom of anything wrong.
        Last edited by gordr; 10-20-2010, 03:25 PM. Reason: choice of word
        Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

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        • #5
          Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
          If the "Circuit Board" you are talking about is the insulator board with the two fuses and the Flasher Unit on it, that fuse holder only has the input POWER wire from Solenoid for Brake Lights/and Dome Light and the Turn signal fuse and the flasher sockets, so has NO turn signal light wires at all! There is a flashing current output from the Flasher to the turn signal switch in the steering column that's all. No lights except the stop light switch output power wire and the dome light output wires through the fuse.
          no, the circuit board i'm talking about is in the switch... near the steering wheel on the column... opposite the shifter lever. there are no fuses involved. however, when switched to left turn, no indicator lights come on the dash. when switched to right turn (the one that's broken), both indicator bulbs glow... but more like they're heating up rather than a filament lighting. i think that's just because the board is broken though.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Tom B View Post
            Overdrive....engaged is confusing. When the car is stationary it cannot be "in" overdrive. It must be going over 30 mph to go into OD. When it is stationary, and the handle is pulled out, OD is disabled. When the car is stationary and the handle is pushed in OD is enabled, that is, once the car exceeds 30 mph and the driver lets up on the gas, the engine slows down and OD becomes engaged. Once the car slows down below 25 or so, the OD disengages itself.

            Now, with the car stopped and the engine off, (and the car is on flat ground, no rolling) it is entirely possible that all gears can be shifted into with or without the clutch being engaged or disengaged. The only "Lock" is part of the overdrive, prohibiting the transmission from going into Reverse when it is IN overdrive, over 30 mph. Not likely to happen it it?
            Originally posted by gordr View Post
            The OD / reverse lockout function works like this: shift the transmission into reverse, and a cam on the first-reverse detent sector inside the transmission pushed the OD lockout rail back about a quarter-inch, which is enough to lock the planetary unit and to inhibit the OD pawl from moving, even if the solenoid should be energized. The lockout lever on the OD case basically accomplishes the same thing, by pulling on the rail from the back end.

            Nothing in the overdrive can inhibit the transmission from being shifted into any gear; it's a one-way street. It's quite normal to be able to shift a non-running car into any gear without depressing the clutch. Also, it's quite normal to not be able to shift into one or more gears with the engine off, because the gears in question may have come to a stop in a non-meshing position. Most commonly seen in low and reverse in non-synchro transmissions. Stepping on the clutch won't help, if the car isn't running, and is not on slope such that it can roll to displace a non-meshing gear. It's strictly the luck of the draw, and which gear stopped turning at what point when the car was shut down. It's not a symptom of anything wrong.
            okay, i understand your points. but let me say this: it's shifting into every gear with or without the clutch whether the engine is off or running. in every possible situation, it's shifting into every gear, although it's still not moving.

            towing it home, i towed it 130 miles on a dolly with it in neutral and the clutch pedal to the floor by a board against the seat. i don't know if that has anything to do with anything, but that's what happened.

            i have to get back to class (i'm on a break), but the main point is that i have no idea what's going on. i don't think it's a major or permanent problem (relatively speaking) because it occurred while parked, but i've never dealt with this before and i don't know where else to turn besides this forum. looking through the shop manual, the overdrive seemed the likely culprit because it's not a brake issue, and it doesn't appear to be a transmission issue. not sure about clutch, but you'd think if the clutch were stuck, it would still roll.

            i do appreciate all feedback, though, so don't think i don't!

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            • #7
              If the clutch pedal feels normal (same as it did when the car would drive) put it in gear with the engine running and see if the driveshaft is turning. If it is not, remove the oil drain plug from the overdrive unit. Have a clean container ready to catch the oil so you can examine it.
              AL SORAN RACING

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              • #8
                well, since i've never actually driven the car myself, i don't know what normal clutch play feels like in this car. my friend thinks one possibility is that the throwoff bearing could be loose or broken.

                he's also asking me what we should be looking for in the oil if we have to drain the overdrive. thus, would we have to replace the overdrive or just the worn gear (if that's what you're getting at)?

                and he's also questioning, if the overdrive is out, does that mean the tranny is out, too?

                edit: and he has this to say, too:
                if there's a gear that drives the driveshaft in the overdrive housing that probably has soft teeth (brass usually) to assist the overdrive to engage when you let up the gas, then that might be what's keeping it from moving. if the driveshaft doesn't turn, neither will the rear wheels?
                Last edited by pyrodork; 10-20-2010, 10:51 PM.

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                • #9
                  The manual for the overdrive is several places online. Here is one: http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/trans/B...rive/index.htm. No brass teeth but if you have been running it without checking the oil in the transmission and OD something might be munched.

                  The driveshaft and the rear wheels are always connected. It looks like you need a quick primer on the drivetrain. Take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automob..._drive_layouts.

                  You might want to spend some quality time with the service manuals. If you have only been around modern cars you will need to get your "head in the game". Reading old owners manuals for cars of the same period can help too. The Old Car Manual Project has a bunch.

                  Nathan
                  _______________
                  http://stude.vonadatech.com
                  https://jeepster.vonadatech.com

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                  • #10
                    okay, today we figured out that there's some major vacuum leaks around the carb gaskets, and likely on one part of the manifold(?)... which we are contributing to the fact that it will not idle without feathering the gas. so i guess that's the first step in this project. there was a member who told me he had a gasket kit he'd sell me, but i haven't been able to get in touch with him. is it possible there's a gasket kit at a FLAPS?

                    we were also able to push it backwards, so now we know it's not in gear.

                    i printed off the overdrive manual and there's a lot of good points in it. possible misadjustment in the pull (mine pulls out 6-8" and i guess it's only supposed to pull out an inch or something?). also the possibility of a chewed up gear. we're still not ruling out that the clutch might be stuck open or the throwoff bearing fallen off.

                    but as i said, gotta fix the vacuum leaks first and get it idling. it also crossed our minds that if the drive is somehow vacuum based (he understands this more than i do), this could also be why it's not moving. we will also check the timing (is there anything to know about using a 12v timing light with a positive grounded 6v system? hook the negative wire on the light to the positive barrery connection since that's the ground, or such?) once the vacuum is fixed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There is no vacuum connection to a Borg Warner Overdrive.

                      Since there is no drive or connection between your Engine and your Trans. and the remainder of the driveline, about all that COULD be wrong is the Clutch, because it connects and disconnects the two, nothing else does that.
                      So it has failed in some way, splined hub torn out???

                      If you had one of those cheap, very old school Ignition only, powered timing lights, they have no power leads, so don't have a problem with + or - ground or 6 or 12 volt because they run off of the high voltage plug wire and would work. The downside was, they were quite dim and worked best at night.

                      With something electrical like a modern timing light that MAY be electronic, I would not fool with it, it could have resisters, diodes etc. that can only operate one direction.
                      Last edited by StudeRich; 10-21-2010, 11:02 AM.
                      StudeRich
                      Second Generation Stude Driver,
                      Proud '54 Starliner Owner

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
                        If you had one of those cheap, very old school Ignition only, powered timing lights, they have no power leads, so don't have a problem with + or - ground or 6 or 12 volt because they run off of the high voltage plug wire and would work. The downside was, they were quite dim and worked best at night.

                        With something electrical like a modern timing light that MAY be electronic, I would not fool with it, it could have resisters, diodes etc. that can only operate one direction.
                        it's my friends' light. it is kind of older, but still 12v. it has 3 wires coming from it, two for the battery connection, and one for the spark plug wire. it looks pretty foolproof, but i don't know. i've never worked with a timing light before.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hook the timing light up (red to +, - to neg) just as normal. The timing light does not care about positive ground. My 12V electronic timing light actually works pretty well on 6V. It is dimmer than usual but bright enough to use if not in direct sunlight. If yours does not just get timing light power off another car or a 12V battery.

                          You might need to be careful if the timing light is old and has a metal body. There is a slight chance (VERY slight) that the negative lead for the timing light is tied somehow to the body of the timing light. If that is the case then allowing metal parts of the light (tied to negative) to touch a metal part of the car (tied to positive) would be a bad thing. You can check this easily enough with a multimeter on OHMS. If there is continuity between the negative lead and any exposed metal part of the timing light just be careful not to let that part touch the car.

                          There is nothing magical about positive ground. The only difference is which end of the battery is connected to the chassis of the car. + is still + and - is still - for purposes of powering anything off the car's electrical system. In fact I am not at all sure why they switched when going to 12V. All I can think of is most aircraft of the time used 12V or 24V negative ground so it may have been cheaper or easier to reuse aircraft components for the development work.

                          Nathan
                          _______________
                          http://stude.vonadatech.com
                          https://jeepster.vonadatech.com

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