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Stude tech 94-04 'Stang disc brake adapters return

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  • Stude tech 94-04 'Stang disc brake adapters return

    Since I have received requests to put this back up, I decided to give in
    and do so. Removing it was difficult for me to do, since I know MANY
    out there who actually do appreciate my effort, havent been vocal on
    the forum. It is for YOU, that this information is now being put back up.


    I also went through and removed all of my posts regarding my thought
    process on WHY I made my own setup. This was deemed to be a putting
    down the "other guys" product to promote my own. In all honesty, that
    is NOT true, I am struggling, I dont have the money to invest in doing
    a large group of these kits, and for someone that wants to keep their
    stock rims - I POSE NO THREAT TO TURNER OR STEELTECH. This setup is
    only going to fit MODERN Ford wheels. As I mentioned the GT setup is
    a match for the Crown Victoria steel wheels, so stock Stude hubcaps
    could be used, but the Cobra brakes REQUIRE 17 inch wheels.

    I would appreciate that those who have the remainants of the earlier
    "battle" edit their posts accordingly and leave this thread for info.


    I do request though, that those using the Turner or Steeltech kits, do
    NOT throw out their old front hubs. My design requires them, and if,
    in the future, I DO find a way to mass produce brackets, I wont be
    missing a critical part. Thank you.

    Tom

    As many of you might remember I bought a set of rims for it - 2003 Mustang
    Cobra rims.

    [image]http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/AvantiRims/Avanti03Rims4.jpg[/image]

    Well, one problem I found that I had was the rim would contact the
    upper A-arm pivot in the front on a turn, this is bad for the rim!
    I contacted a guy back east who sells a 12 inch rotor disc brake
    setup that bolts on. The problem - its $650 plus shipping. I also
    want to upgrade my rear brakes, he sells a rear disc kit, but there
    is another problem - its $450 plus shipping.[V] I wouldnt be that
    concerned, but after sending out the $4250 check to the RIAA, I dont
    have much left over for the mortgage, let alone brakes for a car I
    rarely drive. The Avanti brakes need to be completely refurbished,
    so even if I decided to keep the stock brakes, I am looking at over
    1500 dollars in vintage discontinued brake parts ...

    But .. along came my Mustang friend. See, Ford uses the SAME 5 on 4.5
    inch wheel pattern (obviously since I could bolt the rims on) so the
    rotors will fit my hubs also. My Mustang friend GAVE me his whole
    1998 GT disc setup when he upgraded to Cobra brakes. 11 inch vented
    front rotors, calipers, rear solid rotors, calipers (with parking
    brake), and axle brackets. Since I am a CAD operator, I took the
    dimensions of the bracket, and drew them up in CAD, I also got the
    dimensions from the Dana 44 axle. It looks like the rear setup will
    require some milling to thin the bracket a bit to move the mounting
    surface out, and then a bolt pattern change, and open up one side so
    it can slip over the axle tube and mount on the backside of the axle
    flange. It will use three bolts to attach, which is common with a
    disc brake caliper retrofit. The rotor will fit over the hub, and it
    looks like the tapered backside of the stud holes, will nicely center
    the rotor on the studs. Hopefully I can have the brackets modified
    this next week at my work.

    The front is a different story. I didnt get brackets, as the caliper
    mounts to the spindle. I did some research and found a guy who makes
    brackets to mount 03 Cobra brakes on a first Gen Mustang. I pulled
    the image off his website and then imported it into CAD, then traced
    it to get the basic angle and spacing from hub center for the caliper.
    This is important to keep, as bleeding would become difficult! So,
    armed with this new info, I felt good about using the GT front brakes
    as well, you have more drive to adapt something when you get it for
    free!! But, I ran into a problem. The Stude wheel hub is a larger
    diameter then the inside diameter of the Ford rotor! Damn! This is
    not the end of the world, as I can have the wheel hub machined to the

  • #2
    Sorry about the focus on some of these pictures ....

    The Studebaker hubs are now modified to accept the Ford rotors with the rotor lug
    holes drilled out to the next SAE size - 5/8. The original Ford rotor holes being
    metric these days. Here is the stock hub after separation - before mod :





    The Ford rotor is 5.6 inchs in diameter where the hub needs to fit, the outside of
    the hub was turned down to 5.5 inches, if you were to want to go with the Cobra
    13 inch rotor from the start, I am assuming that the Cobra has more room in the
    back, but this is not verified yet. I know that the rear rotor will fit the stock Stude
    hub without being turned down:





    I used Chrysler wheel studs, which are for a 1/2 and 3/4 ton truck from the 70's
    all the way to 2003 - nice huh? Wide array of availability. Napa part number is
    BK6412184, they come in boxes of 5. The only problem in using them is they are
    for a larger hole. The Stude knurl is .645, but the knurl on these studs is .668. I
    used a 21/32 drill to give me ~.012 of interference fit, then added Loctite. It is
    pretty easy to do, with a hand drill and a vice. The studs are 1 3/4 inch long, with
    a shoulder that would extend out to center the rotor.









    I found that the old Stude rotor makes a perfect holder for the hub when pressing
    the studs in, nice and stable. I might mention that one of the hubs on my Avanti
    was a drum brake hub, with a disc pressed on the back, so I know that this will
    work for either hubs. I found that the disc brake hub, accepted the stud straighter
    then the drum brake hub. This is because the drum brake hub is not machined on
    the back. This was easy enough to "fix", by putting the rotor on the hub, and then
    tightening the wheel on to draw the rotor onto the hub. This straightened the studs
    to the correct position (since the tapered hole in the rim will force the stud to
    perpendicular to the hub face). I didnt have to do this with the disc brake hub.







    Here is the finished hub - ready for a Ford rotor!





    Here is the difference between the stud rotor and the Ford, the Stud is non-vented
    and only about 3/8 thick, each half of the Ford rotor is 3/8 thick. The Stude one
    worked great in its day, and still is good for a few stops, but I wouldnt trust it on
    a twisty auto cross course!



    Here is the dinky little bracket that holds the stock Stude caliper in place, it only
    uses three of the available 6 holes, and mounts on the back side.



    Compared to a Craftsmen 9/16 wrench .... so cute!

    [img]http://hometown.aol.com/sbca96/images/
    '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
    Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
    I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

    Comment


    • #3
      Well ... here is the next step in the Mustang GT brake project : test bracket. Its
      always best when prototyping, to test your dimensions before going to metal. I
      used some masonite to fab a rough bracket and test the design.

      Here is the test bracket mounted on the spindle :



      The large radius is to clear the massive wheel cylinder on the front caliper.

      Here is the modified Studebaker hub mounted on the spindle:



      Then we slip the Mustang rotor over the studs (with the metric holes drilled to the
      next size SAE : 5/8):



      And finally test fit the caliper onto the bracket to see how we did:



      Turned out that I got pretty close on my first try. The only drawback was the lower
      caliper bolt is right in line with the steering arm on the spindle. Not really a HUGE
      problem, there are some tools that will allow the torquing of the bottom bolt, its
      just nice when everything clears perfectly. Other then that, all looked great, now
      to mill some 6061-T6!

      Tom
      '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
      Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
      http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
      I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

      Comment


      • #4
        Masonite just doesnt compare to the look of machined aluminum. My work has a
        lot of odd sized 6061-T6 scrap laying around, and even though my first choice was
        to go with 7075-T6, you can not beat the price of free. Doing a comparison in the
        strength of each, and steel .. the yeild and the expansion, it seemed that 7075 was
        overkill anyway. But, I used 3/4 thick 6061-T6 - just in case.

        Here is the drivers side bracket mounted on the spindle :





        Using 3/4 inch thick aluminum gave me the opportunity to create a grease cavity
        in the back side of the bracket. This is something that Studebaker used at all four
        corners of the car, it is there so that if a grease seal was to fail .. the grease will
        ooze harmlessly out the back .. and not end up on the drum or disc.



        Here is a view from further back, sorry about all the grime and crud, I wasnt in the
        mood to clean any more then I have too to check fitment. Once I swap out the GT
        rotor and caliper for the big Cobra stuff, I will scrape and paint everything.



        Here is the hub back on, and as you can see, designed in the bracket inner dia lets
        the hub sit inside of it ... so if the grease seal fails ...



        Now on to the passenger side, a mirrored bracket :



        The rotor and caliper mounted :





        There they be! Ofcourse the next step is to attach the Mustang brake lines to the
        Studebaker frame, and for that the factory Mustang brackets didnt work, and the
        factory Studebaker ones didnt either. So ... time to cut and bend and weld!

        Tom
        '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
        Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
        http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
        I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

        Comment


        • #5
          After jacking the car up so that the wheels dangled, I figured that THIS would be
          the "Worst Case" senario for the rubber brake hoses. I would end up trying quite
          a few different locations and angles of the hose end before decideing on the best
          position. The hose needed to be able to flex without rubbing anything throughout
          the travel of the suspension and the turning of the wheel. What a pain! I found
          that the stock Mustang brackets needed to be 90 degrees from what they were.
          So I cut off the "business end" and then bought some steel stock. I wanted to use
          the existing holes in the frame to bolt it down and locate it so that it wouldnt turn.

          Here they are!! :



          I dont know how to weld, but the supervisor of the machine shop will weld simple
          parts for fast food fries. These cost me a large fry from Mc Donalds. This next pic
          shows WHERE these go, I bet now it makes sense.



          A close up ... pretty aint she?



          And of course one for the other side as well :



          The hoses dont contact anything when the wheels turn back and forth and the only
          modification to the hose was an adapter fitting on the DRIVERS side to turn the
          larger flare to the size Studebaker uses. Strange, but the PASS side was the same
          size as Studebaker and didnt need to be changed. The wrench needed to tighten
          the hose was a metric, but the flare was SAE - go figure.

          My dad and I drove around and the brakes worked AMAZINGLY well. I had hoped
          for an improvement, but there is NO comparison. Granted the old brakes were in
          pretty bad condition, but the addition of a vented rotor will help cooling. I plan on
          switching to the 13 inch Cobra brakes as soon as I get my tax refund. My dad
          wants the GT parts for his Avanti.

          Is anyone interested in something like this being marketed? I feel that by using
          the original hubs, it really reduces waste, and doesnt require buying hard to find
          rotors or using sleeves. Not to put down the great work that others have done to
          keep Studes on the road, but I think there is always room for another viewpoint.

          Shoot me an email if interested : sbca96@aol.com

          Now I am working on the rear disc setup ... the brackets are done, and on the axle
          and I am modifiying the hubs with the Dodge wheel studs. The outer dia of the hub
          doesnt need to be machined down, because the inner dia of the Mustang rotor is
          larger then the front and the Stude hub is smaller - perfect fit. The rotors actually
          fit fine, but its recommended to have at LEAST 8 threads of contact on wheel studs
          and I was at 5 with the stock length studs. I ordered the stock Mustang rear hoses
          for the setup, because I didnt get those from my friend. I was happy to find that
          Autozone includes the banjo bolt in the hose kit. Before you laugh, they are nice
          hoses made by Wagner. Now I have to figure out the plumbing, once I get all the
          wheel studs in ... had a mishap with one of the 5 studs I COULD get (damn the
          StupidBowl, most the autoparts stores closed early today!), it contacted the socket
          that I was using when pressing the stud in, and ruined the threads on the stud.

          GRRRRRRRR!

          Oh well .. gotta buy 6 tomorrow now.

          I must also mention that "Bobby" the machinist thats been doing all the work for
          me after hours, has been absolutely wonderful. If it wasnt for his patience with
          the sometimes last minute and "on the fly" design changes this wouldnt have even
          happened. Even the slight "correction" that we had to do on the rear brake caliper
          brackets he didnt cringe (much) at. Thanks Bobby!! You dah Man!

          Tom
          '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
          Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
          http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
          I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

          Comment


          • #6
            what a great project!

            just curious about those wheels, what size/offset are they, and how did they fit before you started modding the brakes (besides the interference in the front that you mentioned?) I think the new Mustang 16" wheels might look cool on a Stude but am worried that they have too much offset.

            nate

            --
            55 Commander Starlight
            62 Daytona hardtop
            http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
            --
            55 Commander Starlight
            http://members.cox.net/njnagel

            Comment


            • #7
              quote:Originally posted by N8N

              what a great project!
              Thanks!

              Tom
              '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
              Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
              http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
              I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

              Comment


              • #8
                I'd be interested, but I have other things on my plate right now, like getting my steering box rebuilt and keeping my glass from leaking.

                Just curious, what exactly do you think are the drawbacks of the Turner system? I personally get a little nervous putting too much tire under a Stude; sounds like your brakes are able to use the meats you have to their full potential, but I would be concerned about possible frame cracking... just a thought... I'm sure you've already thought about some of this stuff and if you're OK with the tradeoff then it's all good...

                nate

                --
                55 Commander Starlight
                62 Daytona hardtop
                http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
                --
                55 Commander Starlight
                http://members.cox.net/njnagel

                Comment


                • #9
                  quote:Originally posted by sbca96

                  Really thought I would get more feedback/responses on this thread. One
                  person was interested in wheel offset? I guess everyone is satified
                  enough with the poor design of the Turner system, and the lack of any
                  options or upgrades? Talk about having the air let out of your tires.

                  My machinist friend wants to actually start making these in limited
                  production. So far I have TWO emails in regards to interest. To
                  make it worth while, we need to buy the aluminum in bulk, but I will
                  have a lot of material left over.

                  Tom
                  Tom,
                  Your looking at a very limited market with at least three competing designs (maybe more).
                  a. Many Studebaker owners are happy with their OEM brakes because of various reasons. They work for what they do with the car.
                  Very few of us have a need to stop repeatedly from 130mph.
                  b. The few who choose to change to disc brakes, are happy with current vendor offerings.
                  c. Bad mouthing Mr.Turners setup doesnt help. To you they might be inefficient or too heavy etc but to most folks they maybe just right.

                  I've met Mr Turner and bought one of his dual master cylinder mounts for my 1 ton truck. And I am happy with it.

                  PS.
                  I'm still looking for some one to construct a disc brake kit for 8E12's that use the OEM spindles. None are available now.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    quote:Originally posted by Transtar60


                    Tom,
                    Your looking at a very limited market with at least three competing designs (maybe more).
                    a. Many Studebaker owners are happy with their OEM brakes because of various reasons. They work for what they do with the car.
                    Very few of us have a need to stop repeatedly from 130mph.
                    b. The few who choose to change to disc brakes, are happy with current vendor offerings.
                    c. Bad mouthing Mr.Turners setup doesnt help. To you they might be inefficient or too heavy etc but to most folks they maybe just right.

                    I've met Mr Turner and bought one of his dual master cylinder mounts for my 1 ton truck. And I am happy with it.

                    PS.
                    I'm still looking for some one to construct a disc brake kit for 8E12's that use the OEM spindles. None are available now.
                    Transtar60,
                    Thanks for saying what needed to be said, and doing it in the nicest way possible, too.[8D]

                    Tom, you're be commended for having tackled a tricky job, and for having so well documented his work with great pics. A couple of questions come to mind, though.

                    One, will aluminum stand up to the stresses in this application? I could see the bolt holes becoming ovaled out, particularly if the screws involved aren't torqued properly.

                    Two, on those front brake brackets, it seems to me that one could round off the leading corners without materially reducing strength, and that a couple of lightening holes could also be drilled in the rear area, again without compromising the strength of the part. I'd hazard a guess that a machined or forged steel piece with just enough section thickness to do the job safely would weigh little or nothing more than that big slab of aluminum? Look at the stock Avanti caliper bracket and compare.

                    Three, will stock wheels, or more traditionally styled mags fit on a Stude that uses this arrangement? I'm thinking offset here. Not all of us like the look of those modern rubber-band tires. They may be grippy on good pavement, but on rough roads or gravel they destroy your kidneys.

                    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands
                    Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Tom:

                      I think you have a great setup here, and using up to date components is especially welcome. The only problem is that for many of us we have already made an investment in the disk setups we have. The setup on my '64 R1 Hawk is the original Dave Levesque (before he was Steeltech Solutions) which used '68 Ford LTD rotors (drop on the Stude spindles without any mods) and large Kelsey Hayes (Chrysler) calipers. Dave used up most of the '68 rotors (this was a one year only rotor) and developed the present setup. It has been on my Hawk for over 10 years and no problems what so ever. Yes it is heavy but it works great. If I was looking for a new setup I would surely be interested in what you developed. You might want to design up a display units and go to the national or one of the regional meets with you Avanti to see if you get some more interest. It would definitely be worth the time I believe.

                      Dan

                      Dan White
                      64 R1 GT
                      64 R2 GT
                      Dan White
                      64 R1 GT
                      64 R2 GT
                      58 C Cab
                      57 Broadmoor (Marvin)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        quote:Originally posted by Dan White

                        I think you have a great setup here, and using up to date components is especially welcome. The only problem is that for many of us we have already made an investment in the disk setups we have.
                        Thank you, with the simplicity of the design, I am really surprised
                        that no one had done it before now....
                        '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                        Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                        http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                        I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          quote:Originally posted by sbca96
                          There is no sleeve that I am aware of. Perhaps you're refering to the grease track adapter??? As far as moving the bearings out , the instructions mention a second washer maybe needed. Maybe its actually moving the bearings int



                          Your looking at a very limited market with at least three competing designs (maybe more).
                          Weell Steeltech, Turner, and yours and some guy in Minnesota who evidently only sells on ebay. Gee that makes 4.

                          Sorry, I was only aware of two, Steeltech and Turner.

                          quote:Many Studebaker owners are happy with their OEM brakes because of various reasons. They work for what they do with the car. Very few of us have a need to stop repeatedly from 130mph.
                          Obviously they are not for everyone, I guess SDC isnt really the place
                          to mention any modifications, I should have known better. Considering
                          the very small "custom modified" section in the Turning Wheels, it is
                          not very accepted. Then putting on a dual master is a good idea, if
                          you actually intend to DRIVE your Studebaker. With the cost of OEM
                          parts getting into the rediculous range, I have talked to people who
                          have spent close to 1000 dollars rebuilding their 4 wheel drums. Why?

                          quote:The few who choose to change to disc brakes, are happy with current vendor offerings. Bad mouthing Mr.Turners setup doesnt help. To you they might be inefficient or too heavy etc but to most folks they maybe just right.
                          Yah, on top of the points I made above, they are quite heavy looking.
                          Then they use rotors that were used TWO years, and the Ford guys toss
                          in the trash when they rebuild their Mustangs past anything Concours.
                          The calipers warnings made me laugh, "make sure you get this one type
                          or they will not work, look for the bump ..." If you are going to go
                          to the trouble of offering an upgrade "modern disc brake", why not
                          pick something thats at least more common then what you are replacing?
                          "Modern" is a 60's rotor and a 70's caliper? If those are not valid
                          points worth considering when you are shelling out close to 700 bucks,
                          then I guess I stepped out of bounds here. I looked at Turners, then
                          considered Steeltechs, but then decided to make my own, using common
                          parts from a BROAD spectrum of years, with MANY options.

                          quote:I've met Mr Turner and bought one of his dual master cylinder mounts for my 1 ton truck. And I am happy with it.
                          I am sure that Mr Turner is a GREAT guy, I dont remember saying that
                          he wasnt.
                          You didnt but you did "dis" his product with out much explanation.


                          I have never met Dave at Steeltech, but my brother did and
                          Dave helped him fix a bad pinion bearing in the middle of the night. I
                          dont see what that has to do with brakes though.
                          Has nothing to do with brakes. Lots to do with who's selling them.

                          You decided to put
                          on a dual master cylinder? Was that OEM stuff not good enough?[][:0]
                          Not for driving on roads with todays "drivers".


                          quote:I'm still looking for some one to construct a disc brake kit for 8E12's that use the OEM spindles. None are available now.
                          I threw that out there to rein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Stubborn lot, aren't we?

                            Thanks for posting the pic's.
                            I like good work.

                            Time is relentless, so what was great 10 years ago might be old hat today.....
                            But please be kind to those that actually build stuff.
                            It's the people, and their devotion to making, selling, servicing, and supporting Stude stuff that makes it worthwhile.
                            Sure, some will build their own to save a buck. It's their ride (and their neck), so let 'em have at it...
                            The quality of the workmanship, and the quality of the service and support that make my purchase decisions. 36 month waiting periods, with personal attacks made about me (when the builder breaks promises) is what will turn me off...in a hurry (is 36 months too long a wait to be told he hasn't got time to help you, because you posted a warning to others that he was slow????)
                            No rant here, because I am beyond that.
                            Just do good work, take no shortcuts, and be sure to share the good (and the bad) part of your projects...
                            That is what makes this marque a great one!
                            Jeff[8D]
                            HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

                            Jeff


                            Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



                            Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The guy on Ebay selling Stude brake kits is Steeltech.

                              Dan White
                              64 R1 GT
                              64 R2 GT
                              Dan White
                              64 R1 GT
                              64 R2 GT
                              58 C Cab
                              57 Broadmoor (Marvin)

                              Comment

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