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advice requested on new wiring harness

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  • advice requested on new wiring harness

    I see a "complete" harness for 63 Avanti for $449.95, at Studebaker International.

    1. At other sites, it is $135.00. this is too broad, obviously, there is something missing here.
    2. Also, how do I keep the color codes?
    3. I would appreciate explicit URLs, thanks!

    previous on this topic

    quote:Originally posted by Swifster
    I'd use a new harness from someone like Painless, Ron Francis or others. I think an OEM harness is an invitation for a fire. JMHO

    AMEN to that.
    C&L's Parts (http://www.clparts.com/aprodpages/awiring.html) sell the EZ Wiring Mini20 Kit (http://www.ezwiring.com/harness.htm) for about $135.00. p.d.


    Terry,
    1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065 http://sterkel.org/avanti
    1985 Kubota L2202 (Diesel)
    2000 VW Jetta GLS
    2003 VW Jetta TDI (Diesel) http://sterkel.org/tdi

  • #2
    I would check with:

    Studebaker West Full line parts and service dealer. 650-366-8787 (lLet it ring!!!)

    They make them and they are on the money correct! I got one for my '64 GT this summer.

    As for how much you need to see what you are getting, the whole thing or various bits and pieces.a

    Dan White
    64 R1 GT
    64 R2 GT
    Dan White
    64 R1 GT
    64 R2 GT
    58 C Cab
    57 Broadmoor (Marvin)

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree with Dan

      Miscreant at large.

      1957 Transtar 1/2ton
      1960 Larkvertible V8
      1958 Provincial wagon
      1953 Commander coupe
      1957 President 2-dr
      1955 President State
      1951 Champion Biz cpe
      1963 Daytona project FS
      No deceptive flags to prove I'm patriotic - no biblical BS to impress - just ME and Studebakers - as it should be.

      Comment


      • #4
        Terry, the difference in price can be due to many different reasons. If the $449 harness is a direct, OEM style replacement, it will be (should be) an exact duplicate of what is in the car now. Some places sell NOS (New Old Stock) harnesses, that have never been installed and are original 40 year old parts.

        Aftermarket harnesses such as Ron Francis, Painless, EZ Wiring, American Auto Wire, just to name a few, a 'generic' wiring harnesses. These will require a little more work to install. These most likely will not have the OEM color codes, but they are typically labeled by circuit every few inches. In other words, the tail light wiring will literally say 'RIGHT TAIL LAMP'. These are not concourse correct.

        The benefit is these harnesses use current technology with a new modern fuse block with color coded, blade fuses. These systems are a lot neater and will decrease the possibilty of your Avanti going up in a blaze og glory. While tearing down my Daytona, I've cut the wiring I know I'll need at length long enough to ensure I can add new, modern connectors, or that I'll be able to reuse the OEM connectors attached to the original 'pigtails'. I've done this with my head and tail lamps. With my car being turned into a hot rod, almost every other connector is being replaced.

        Many of the above listed companies sell these harnesses in different configurations depending on your needs. Some have as few as 8 circuits and as many as 24. If your car is more basic (no air, manual windows, locks, etc.), a 12 circuit system many be all you'll need. If it was a 'loaded' car, it may need a 18 circuit system.

        As you can imagine, these can come with different pricing based on what your needs are. I bought an American AutoWire 'Highway 22' harness that has 22 circuits for things like power windows, lock, cruise, etc. This ran $315. You can find these types of harnesses cheaper thru resellers than the actual manufacturer.

        Also, many of these harnesses can be made 'modular'. You can buy smaller harnesses that are strickly for the gauge cluster, an EFI engine harness (I have a stand alone GM style harness that connects to my main harness), or for a cooling fan (including relays).

        Many OEM connectors can be reused. It does require the tedious task of pulling out the original connector pins from the connectors and resoldering new pins on new wire and reinstalling into the connector. Many of the original Studebaker connectors are hot fused and can not be disassembled. This may mean making new connectors or placing two connectors where only one is needed.

        Hope this helps. It should be noted that rewiring the car will take about a week. With some organization and few buddies, maybe just a weekend.

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

        Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

        1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)
        Tom - Bradenton, FL

        1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
        1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

        Comment


        • #5
          URL's

          Ron Francis - http://www.wire-works.com/showpage.php?page=main.htm

          Painless - http://www.painlessperformance.com/

          American AutoWire - http://www.americanautowire.com/

          Centech - http://www.centechwire.com/

          E-Z Wiring - http://www.ezwiring.com/

          Vehicle Wiring Products - http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.c...page/home.html




          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

          Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

          1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)
          Tom - Bradenton, FL

          1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
          1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

          Comment


          • #6
            I am not interested in concourse correct.

            looking to have the best current technology in the stuff "behind the curtain."
            As an example, i am rehabbing the original AM/FMradio as it is "in front of the curtain. This is despite the fact that I probably can get a much superior current technology radio for less than rehab.
            The wiring is "behind the curtain" Can someone tell me why i should not go with the generic?

            So, I can safely use a color 21 wire generic harness?

            thanks!




            quote:Originally posted by Swifster

            Terry, the difference in price can be due to many different reasons. If the $449 harness is a direct, OEM style replacement, it will be (should be) an exact duplicate of what is in the car now. Some places sell NOS (New Old Stock) harnesses, that have never been installed and are original 40 year old parts.

            Aftermarket harnesses such as Ron Francis, Painless, EZ Wiring, American Auto Wire, just to name a few, a 'generic' wiring harnesses. These will require a little more work to install. These most likely will not have the OEM color codes, but they are typically labeled by circuit every few inches. In other words, the tail light wiring will literally say 'RIGHT TAIL LAMP'. These are not concourse correct.

            The benefit is these harnesses use current technology with a new modern fuse block with color coded, blade fuses. These systems are a lot neater and will decrease the possibilty of your Avanti going up in a blaze og glory. While tearing down my Daytona, I've cut the wiring I know I'll need at length long enough to ensure I can add new, modern connectors, or that I'll be able to reuse the OEM connectors attached to the original 'pigtails'. I've done this with my head and tail lamps. With my car being turned into a hot rod, almost every other connector is being replaced.

            Many of the above listed companies sell these harnesses in different configurations depending on your needs. Some have as few as 8 circuits and as many as 24. If your car is more basic (no air, manual windows, locks, etc.), a 12 circuit system many be all you'll need. If it was a 'loaded' car, it may need a 18 circuit system.

            As you can imagine, these can come with different pricing based on what your needs are. I bought an American AutoWire 'Highway 22' harness that has 22 circuits for things like power windows, lock, cruise, etc. This ran $315. You can find these types of harnesses cheaper thru resellers than the actual manufacturer.

            Also, many of these harnesses can be made 'modular'. You can buy smaller harnesses that are strickly for the gauge cluster, an EFI engine harness (I have a stand alone GM style harness that connects to my main harness), or for a cooling fan (including relays).

            Many OEM connectors can be reused. It does require the tedious task of pulling out the original connector pins from the connectors and resoldering new pins on new wire and reinstalling into the connector. Many of the original Studebaker connectors are hot fused and can not be disassembled. This may mean making new connectors or placing two connectors where only one is needed.

            Hope this helps. It should be noted that rewiring the car will take about a week. With some organization and few buddies, maybe just a weekend.

            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

            Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

            1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)
            [:I][:I][:I][8D][}][}]

            Terry,
            1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065 http://sterkel.org/avanti
            1985 Kubota L2202 (Diesel)
            2000 VW Jetta GLS
            2003 VW Jetta TDI (Diesel) http://sterkel.org/tdi

            Comment


            • #7
              The choice is yours to make. The Studebaker West harnesses use new type vinyl covered wiring (these are not NOS!) and will be a drop in replacement for your car. I think they are less than $300, my GT was around $265 I believe. They will also let you do some customization if you like by adding wires for accessories, etc. I am not sure what the comment about bursting into flames is all about unless it is directed at the ammeter circuit? Of course you can replace the fuse box with a new style box that is available from various sources that are in this thread. Rewiring does take time and the OEM replacement harness will take less time but the aftermarket will work just fine but make sure you make a circuit diagram if you go this route for the next owner. My 64 GT had a mish mash of original and patched wires that drove me nuts trying to find out why this or that did not work or worked when it was not supposed to!!!! For simplicity and ease I would stick with the Stude West harness.

              Dan White
              64 R1 GT
              64 R2 GT
              Dan White
              64 R1 GT
              64 R2 GT
              58 C Cab
              57 Broadmoor (Marvin)

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't see NOS or repro harnesses as a knee-shaking blaze in waiting. IF that were the case, there'd be alot less of these cars around for us to "make better".[}]
                If I remember right, the Avanti has a bank of circuit breakers behind the dash. IF you didn't feel safe with these, you could easily adapt a fuse block from a "modern" car to take the place of those breakers.
                Likewise, a fusible link can easily be incorporated into a factory-style harness as well.[^]
                I earned many a paycheck assembling wiring harnesses for a whole spectrum of aircraft - from a 2-seat helicopter to the C5-A. The only problems I see with Stude wiring is the pre-56 vehicles that had the cloth-covered wiring. ANY of that stuff that's still in service is trouble waiting to happen. [}]
                From a cusstom standpoint, one of those You-kin-do-it, one size fitz awl harnesses would be a good alternative. Different engine, instruments, lighting, accessories - it adds up to a whole different nerve network to make it all work.
                But to summarily dismiss the OEM setup as a disaster in waiting is stretching it pretty thin.[)]

                Miscreant at large.

                1957 Transtar 1/2ton
                1960 Larkvertible V8
                1958 Provincial wagon
                1953 Commander coupe
                1957 President 2-dr
                1955 President State
                1951 Champion Biz cpe
                1963 Daytona project FS
                No deceptive flags to prove I'm patriotic - no biblical BS to impress - just ME and Studebakers - as it should be.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The few cars I've seen disassembled had harnesses that looked like nothing but bad spaghetti. The wiring in my Daytona, while all original and uncut, was far from servicable. In some cases circuit breakers may be a benefit, but I don't think that's the case in a street driven car. I've heard of more than one Stude that's burnt to the ground. I certainly won't suggest every car is a ticking bomb, I think there is a lot that can be improved upon. The wiring is a big one.

                  While you could use the OEM harness while rewiring with a fuse panel, going thru all that grief isn't necessary. The harnesses are as complete as you want them to be. Most are preterminated at the fuse box, while some require connecting the wires to the fuse block seperately. Because the wiring is generic, there are no connectors attached. Enough wire is run in a continuous path to wire the largest of cars. This allows the wiring to be trimed to fit.

                  As mentioned, the wiring has the circuit stampted on the wire itself. Not really hard to follow a circuit when the name is stamped along it's entire length. With an Avanti, I'd also be sure to get the grounding kit. Without a steel body, there will be many grounds that will be required to keep everything working properly.

                  I'm actually going to be using a few quick disconnects to service different parts of the harness serperately. This will allow the removal of the gauge cluster, electronic speedometer and tach by disconnecting one plug instead of trying to unwire everything seperately from under the dash. Studebaker gauges are very similar to a set of aftermarket ones. The wiring company just needs to know an amp gauge is being used instead of a voltmeter.



                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

                  Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

                  1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)
                  Tom - Bradenton, FL

                  1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
                  1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    OK Tom, convince me. Detail some of the stories you've heard of Studes burning to the ground because of bad wiring. Make sure that you recount the ones where the wiring had never been tampered with by some "mechanic" before the thing suffered a conflagration.
                    Studebaker relied on circuit breakers for protection for years and years. You'd think if they were unacceptable for "street driving" that they'd have had a heck of a PR problem in short order if CBs were troublemakers. For that matter, just try and find a fuse on an airplane.[:I]
                    Not picking a fight here, Tom. Let's air this out and get to the bottom of it. Maybe I need to order up Painless kits for my current projects - not to mention my 57 Transtar and 60 ragtop drivers which have been gambling with fate all along.[:0]

                    Miscreant at large.

                    1957 Transtar 1/2ton
                    1960 Larkvertible V8
                    1958 Provincial wagon
                    1953 Commander coupe
                    1957 President 2-dr
                    1955 President State
                    1951 Champion Biz cpe
                    1963 Daytona project FS
                    No deceptive flags to prove I'm patriotic - no biblical BS to impress - just ME and Studebakers - as it should be.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      quote:Originally posted by tsterkel

                      [b]I am not interested in concourse correct.

                      looking to have the best current technology in the stuff "behind the curtain."
                      As an example, i am rehabbing the original AM/FMradio as it is "in front of the curtain. This is despite the fact that I probably can get a much superior current technology radio for less than rehab.
                      The wiring is "behind the curtain" Can someone tell me why i should not go with the generic?

                      So, I can safely use a color 21 wire generic harness?

                      thanks!
                      I'd be interested to know why you want to change the harness. Is it to get the best current technology in that area or is it because you have experienced (or see) some problems with the current harness? If the latter, what specific problems do you have?

                      -Dick-
                      Dick Steinkamp
                      Bellingham, WA

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Didn't Kent's first Lark burn? I wish I'd have taken more pictures before pitching the dash harness. What a mess! At most, the car had three inline glass fuses that I would not trust. The wiring going to the switches are exposed where they connect to the switches, including the ignition. Some have rubber 'boots' that go over push on posts (these are fine), while others are exposed. I don't trust it.

                        Now, if I'm doing a complete restoration down to the last nut and bolt, I'd buy an original harness and keep the fire extinguisher close by. What Terry (and myself, as well as a few others) is looking at is long term drivability and dependability. If the circuit breaker system was that dependable, every car company would use them. At this point, no one does.

                        The big three used common connector, fuse protected circuits with print circuit boards. The wiring in my Daytona looks like a poorly designed kit car. Why not improve the durability and safety with a harness using current technology? It's not 1953 anymore.

                        Circuit breakers can fail and start fires. A failed switch can start a fire (the switch contacts are exposed).

                        I'm planning either a '64 Challenger or '66 Commander street/strip car similar to the Jimmy Addison 'Silver Bullet' '67 Plymouth GTX. This means using Studebaker and period speed equipment. But the car will have a modern wiring harness. I agree with Terry, if it's 'behind the curtain' it hurts nothing and most likely will improve the drivability.

                        As mentioned, this is Just My Humble Opinion (JMHO). I have no problem with those that wish to keep their car 100% Studebaker. But this is no different than using Fairborn's flanged axles, or a Hurst shifter.

                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

                        Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

                        1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)
                        Tom - Bradenton, FL

                        1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
                        1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well, if Kent doesn't speak up here, I'll ask him pointedly. But I think his cars demise was due to a faulty fuel system component, not rats nest wiring.

                          I don't find a problem with your intent for your project, Tom. I just have a problem with hollering "fire" because you have a fear of matches and you see a box of them lying on a table.[:I]

                          One well-meaning sort tried to convince Stude owners awhile back that they WERE tempting fate every time they left the driveway with a tapered-axle Stude![:0] Well, maybe I live a very sheltered existence, but I've yet to know personally, a person who's had an axle snap on them. I DO know that it happens on RARE occassion, but so do parts failures on "modern technology" cars from today's automakers.

                          My point is - you can't point to one or two failures and condemn all the rest of the like units that are out there. As I said earlier - we don't know what sort of "repairs" might havfe been effected to a Stude's wiring over the years. That iffy factor is much more chancy than what the car came with when new.

                          One point you mention - the suspect you have for inline fuses. Is it the fuse, the holder or the wiring it's attached to that you find troublesome? The fuse will do it's job if it sees an overload. So how could it be a threat unless some dolt had wrapped the fuse with foil in the past? Mr.Biggs

                          Miscreant at large.

                          1957 Transtar 1/2ton
                          1960 Larkvertible V8
                          1958 Provincial wagon
                          1953 Commander coupe
                          1957 President 2-dr
                          1955 President State
                          1951 Champion Biz cpe
                          1963 Daytona project FS
                          No deceptive flags to prove I'm patriotic - no biblical BS to impress - just ME and Studebakers - as it should be.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            quote:Originally posted by Swifster

                            Didn't Kent's first Lark burn? I wish I'd have taken more pictures before pitching the dash harness. What a mess! At most, the car had three inline glass fuses that I would not trust. The wiring going to the switches are exposed where they connect to the switches, including the ignition. Some have rubber 'boots' that go over push on posts (these are fine), while others are exposed. I don't trust it.

                            Now, if I'm doing a complete restoration down to the last nut and bolt, I'd buy an original harness and keep the fire extinguisher close by. What Terry (and myself, as well as a few others) is looking at is long term drivability and dependability. If the circuit breaker system was that dependable, every car company would use them. At this point, no one does.

                            The big three used common connector, fuse protected circuits with print circuit boards. The wiring in my Daytona looks like a poorly designed kit car. Why not improve the durability and safety with a harness using current technology? It's not 1953 anymore.

                            Circuit breakers can fail and start fires. A failed switch can start a fire (the switch contacts are exposed).

                            I'm planning either a '64 Challenger or '66 Commander street/strip car similar to the Jimmy Addison 'Silver Bullet' '67 Plymouth GTX. This means using Studebaker and period speed equipment. But the car will have a modern wiring harness. I agree with Terry, if it's 'behind the curtain' it hurts nothing and most likely will improve the drivability.

                            As mentioned, this is Just My Humble Opinion (JMHO). I have no problem with those that wish to keep their car 100% Studebaker. But this is no different than using Fairborn's flanged axles, or a Hurst shifter.

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

                            Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

                            1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)
                            Sounds like the switches (including ignition switch) need to be replaced also in order to get that electrical system where you want it. I'd also think about a fuseable link (or similar device) just in case you get a dead short even with the wiring upgrade.

                            Folks that are not into the "bone stock" aspect of the hobby are going to "upgrade" those things that they are uncomfortable with (for whatever reason). To some, it's the wiring system, the keyed axles, the stock shifter. To others it's the 50+ year old design of the V8 engine (60+ years for the 6) or the dated automatic, or the lack of an overdrive for the 4 speed stick, or the 50+ year old suspension design, or the dated braking system, or the antique ignition system, or the fuel delivery system, or the uncomfortable seats, or the lack of airconditiong, power windows, cruise control, stereo, shoulder belts, power steering and brakes, etc, etc.

                            Some justify the changes for safety, dependability, driveablilty, comfort or performance. Some make the changes just because thay want to.

                            None of the changes are absolutely necessary, but they are all allowed.

                            -Dick-
                            '54 Starliner Chevy powered street rod
                            '46 M15A-28 Chevy powered stake bed
                            Dick Steinkamp
                            Bellingham, WA

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You're going to stir up a s#!tstorm with this, you know[}].....
                              Here's my 2 cents worth...
                              If you want to upgrade your electrical system, then go with a complete 21+ circuit system from Painless, <s>Ron Francis</s>, or EZ wiring, or one of the others listed above. Remember that this is a total replacement system and an upgrade. All the wires will be the same color (black) with writing on them every three inches (or so). You strip everything out of your ride and you start from scratch. (Actually, that is the fun part...cutting out the old stuff and putting it in a big pile on the shop floor. Then you feed your wiring out of the new control box (fusebox is an antiquated term) to the appropriate area and start to hook stuff back up. (solder joints and shrinktube only, if you know what is good for you[V])..
                              Get a kit that is BIGGER than you need. You can always grow into it, like when you put the DVD player in those Avanti seats[:0] for your X-box, or the neon underneath the hog troughs)...
                              Simply replacing your existing harness with a 'correct' harness made out of new material will only give you a new 1963 harness...Which is fine for a judged car, or an unmodified car. A stock, but new harness should take you all the way to the year 2045 (or so)... Are you good enough to go that far?[8)]...
                              I have installed several aftermarket harnesses, replaced a couple harnesses with stock ones, and manually replaced every frikkin' wire in my Stude(s)... I'd opt for a modern aftermarket wiring harness for my driver...anytime. Not because the old one's are bad...they aren't bad. Just is, the new stuff is better.....
                              Jeff[8D]


                              [quote]Originally posted by tsterkel
                              I am not interested in concourse correct.
                              looking to have the best current technology in the stuff "behind the curtain."
                              As an example, i am rehabbing the original AM/FMradio as it is "in front of the curtain. This is despite the fact that I probably can get a much superior current technology radio for less than rehab.
                              The wiring is "behind the curtain" Can someone tell me why i should not go with the generic?
                              So, I can safely use a color 21 wire generic harness?
                              thanks!
                              [quote

                              DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
                              '37 Coupe Express
                              '37 Coupe Express Trailer
                              '61 Hawk

                              http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock
                              HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

                              Jeff


                              Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



                              Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

                              Comment

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