Avanti cold cranking issue? Updated

[edpjr]

I've had a lot of success lately with restoring my '63 S/C R1 Avanti. While the car runs VERY well, it has recently developed a problem of starting when it's cold. With temps now down in the 30-40 degree F range, she just won't crank in the morning unless primed with a little carb cleaner or starting fluid. It seems to fire up fine if I crank it again within an hour or two, but once it goes cold, it just doesn't want to crank unless primed. It has a new electronic dist, hi-voltage coil, and hi-capacity battery. So the motor turns over great. It has an electric choke. And, it's hard to believe there's a problem with the fuel pump, cause it runs great. Any suggestions? Thanks! [^]

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[Milaca]

I'm not familiar with electric chokes, but it sounds like it may not be closing when you first attempt to start the car.


Brent's rootbeer racer.
MN iron ore...it does your body good.

[Tom Bredehoft]

For the past 20 or so years, with fuel injected engines, the start mantra has been "sit down, turn the key and the engine starts.

When Studebaker was building cars, it was "sit down, pump the gas once, turn the key."

The difference is that the "pump the gas" injects some raw gas in the manifold and allows the choke to close.

Without closing the choke in cold weather, the engine won't start. Are you allowing the choke to close?

By the way, " she just won't crank in the morning unless primed with a little carb cleaner" is confusing. Its cranking alright, it isn't fireing.

[img=left]http://www.alink.com/personal/tbredehoft/Avatar1.jpg[/img=left]
Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe (since 1959)
'55 President (6H Y6) State Sedan
....On the road, again....
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All Indiana built cars

[edpjr]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm 54 and have owned Studes (and other old cars) since the early 70's. I crank the Avanti just as you described, which is, btw, the way the owner's manual says to do it. But in this case, you can pump it once, twice and on and on and it won't start. Maybe the pump in the AFB carb is bad?? I don't know. But, I do have a rebuild kit that I was hoping I wouldn't have to use for awhile. Maybe the funky electric choke on it is screwed up, but it's got juice going to it.

quote:Originally posted by Tom B

For the past 20 or so years, with fuel injected engines, the start mantra has been "sit down, turn the key and the engine starts.

When Studebaker was building cars, it was "sit down, pump the gas once, turn the key."

The difference is that the "pump the gas" injects some raw gas in the manifold and allows the choke to close.

Without closing the choke in cold weather, the engine won't start. Are you allowing the choke to close?

By the way, " she just won't crank in the morning unless primed with a little carb cleaner" is confusing. Its cranking alright, it isn't fireing.

[img=left]http://www.alink.com/personal/tbredehoft/Avatar1.jpg[/img=left]
Tom Bredehoft
'53 Commander Coupe (since 1959)
'55 President (6H Y6) State Sedan
....On the road, again....
'05 Legacy Ltd Wagon
All Indiana built cars

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[maxpower1954]

My Avanti's been getting the same way in the last few years. The carb was last rebuilt in 1994 by Daytona Parts Co. - I suspect the leather seals in the accelerator pumps has dried out. My R-2 GT had the issue as well until recently. I had Dave Tbow rebuild the carb and now it starts right up, even in 40 degree weather. BTW, I've re-built many one and two barrels myself, but I send my AFBs to either Dave or Jon Myers. Worth the money, believe me.

Russ Farris

[bams50]

Pretty much all the carb-equipped cars I've owned in my life start the same way: Pump the gas a few times, crank maybe 10 revs, stop, pump a few more times; repeat till it starts. When they've been sitting awhile, after the first try, pump 8-10 times, try, repeat to start.

This procedure varies by vehicle, but I found that Ford products seem to need more pumping than most. Cold weather also exacerbates this issue for any car. And it remains to be seen how these new half-baked fuels are going to affect things.

In any case, my experience is that carbureted cars rarely start as easily as the owner's manual procedure says. Add to that 30-40-50 years and it's just a fact of life with our oldies

Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[bige]

Definitely make sure the choke plate snaps closed when the engine is cold. If it doesn't just move the choke therm housing until it does. The electric part is only there to assist the choke in opening, no effect on closing, but if you are pumping with the key on you are heating the choke and causing it to open, albeit slowly.

A worn accel pump will make starting very difficult so while you're checking the choke check the accel pump. However as Bob pointed out the fuel today seems to evaporate out of the carb quick enough that if the car sits for a few days the bowls need to fill up first. I crank my cars that have been sitting a little before I even hit the pedal to fill the carb and to get oil moving.

BTW, how did you make out with your electrical issues?


Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

[N8N]

Also, I would carefully inspect the entire length of the fuel line from the tank, even a tiny pinhole will cause the pump to have to work a lot harder as it'll be sucking air, which will show up most when the engine is cranking. Finally, if you haven't rebuilt the fuel pump with a modern diaphragm, that might not be a bad idea (really, for any Studebaker where a recent rebuild can't be confirmed...)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[Gunslinger]

At least part of the problem may be today's gasolines...it's blended differently than gasoline back in the '60s...or '70s or even the '80s. Since virtually all cars made now are fuel injected the volatility requirements are different, not even considering EPA requirements for different areas of the country. Gasoline today evaporates at a much faster rate, so your fuel bowl is dry at startup and it takes some cranking to get fuel into the combustion chambers before the engine fires.

Since you're having a cold temperature start problem, this may not be your proble, but is something to keep in mind.

Also...since the temps are cooler, add some isopropyl gas line anti-freeze to the tank to help absorb any moisture that forms on the tank walls and allow it to burn.


Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

[edpjr]

We have made great strides on the electrical problems. There's a followup with status in that post. Thanks!

quote:Originally posted by bige

Definitely make sure the choke plate snaps closed when the engine is cold. If it doesn't just move the choke therm housing until it does. The electric part is only there to assist the choke in opening, no effect on closing, but if you are pumping with the key on you are heating the choke and causing it to open, albeit slowly.

A worn accel pump will make starting very difficult so while you're checking the choke check the accel pump. However as Bob pointed out the fuel today seems to evaporate out of the carb quick enough that if the car sits for a few days the bowls need to fill up first. I crank my cars that have been sitting a little before I even hit the pedal to fill the carb and to get oil moving.

BTW, how did you make out with your electrical issues?


Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[fmarshall]

I have the same starting problem on my R2. But, I know for a fact that my choke is full open - because I put it there.

I also know, that I have an anemic 3EE battery. And if I put a booster on it. Then it starts fast, regardless of starting fluid, just 1-2 pumps of gas. In warm weather, if I start it every 1-2 days, it works great without a boost.

I suspect that there is some voltage drop due to 40+ year old wiring.

I put my choke open a couple years back, as I didn't know of an easy way to test it and I wasn't starting the car too easily.

========================
63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA

[JDP]

I'd bet a beer it's bad accelerator pump leather. Check down the throat of the carb to see if you get a nice squirt when you yank the throttle. If you don't, you've found the problem. BTW, the electric choke is a improvement, not a bad thing to have.

JDP/Maryland

[63t-cab]

I do'nt think it's a good thing to use starting fluid to prime,maybe a dribble of gas instead.

Joseph R. Zeiger

[edpjr]

My brother was getting ready to install a new accelerator pump in the carb, but first he wanted to check out all the gas lines and filter for obstructions. Surprise! The new gas filter, that has been installed only for about 150 miles, was dang near full of sediment and trash. It was the long metal can type filter. It was very heavy and when tapped released a huge amount of debris material. After replacement, the car seemed to crank fine. Also checked and there IS voltage running to the electric choke. We'll see if it cranks in the morning now. At any rate it looks like I may have a seriously compromised gas tank that needs to be removed and rotted out. Some folks have mentioned that this effort is NOT easy on an Avanti. I still cannot understand how this car could accelerate and run so good (fast) with a virtually plugged gas filter? [^]

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[64V-K7]

quote" gas tank that needs to be removed and rotted out."

It's probably from the alcohol in today's fuels, doing it for you. Alcohol is a very good cleaner and over a period of time, will loosen and break up all the varnish and crud in the tank and lines.



Bob Johnstone
www.studebaker-info.org

64 GT Hawk
55 President State Sedan
70 Avanti (R3)