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gas vs spark vs valve problem-Avanti R-2

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  • gas vs spark vs valve problem-Avanti R-2

    I've got stock '63 R-2 and 64 R-1 Avantis. My problem is the poorly running R-2 which looks great and runs bad. I rebuilt both AFB's and both work fine in the R-1. Both have points set to .016 and timed correctly to +28 and +4 degrees BTDC. Coils and condensers check out with adequate spark, all plugs fire when new, all Autolite 85's gapped at .036. Problem is the R-2. Plug wires and distributor cap OK. Will not run at 650 rpm and funny clanking noise seems to be coming from front left side of engine at slow engine speeds, which disappears at 1000 rpm. Plugs eventually foul out, some gas soaked and some oil soaked, some with soot. Engine eventually dogs out, no power when driving, sometimes barely makes it back to driveway. Using 91 octane gas, no additives, probably 10% ethanol. 95,000 miles on engine, supercharger works fine. I have rebuilt fuel pump, and pumps a lot of gas when open. Floats in carb set fine, correct metering rods and jets. However, no effect using two idle adjusting screws on front of carb. Have to set idle using throttle adjusting screw. Choke seems to work, and problem persists with choke valve wide open. I have even poured 1/2 pint ATF through carb running at full throttle, and after a lot of smoking, engine seems to run better--for a while. Is this a problem with stuck valves, bad rings, jumped timing gear, or what. I have read all related posts on tech forum. I don't have a good compression tester, and it is a ***** to test in a poorly running engine. I am getting too old for this stuff. Anyone want to buy this nice looking R-2 Avanti, or can I fix it!
    sigpic
    Jack, in Montana

  • #2
    You gave me a good clue when you said that Idle adjustment screws dont have any effect. That tells me that either your pump pressure is too high, or more likly one or more floats have developed a crack and are no longer "floating".
    This is not too uncommon if boost levels are high often. Anyways thats what I'd look at first.

    Bez Auto Alchemy
    573-242-3530

    http://auto-alchemy.com
    http://bez-auto-alchemy.blogspot.com
    Bez Auto Alchemy
    573-318-8948
    http://bezautoalchemy.com


    "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

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    • #3
      I would recommend running a compression check and or a leak down test to check for worn or broken parts in the upper cylinders. Connecting as vacuum gauge to the intake manifold and checking the readings would also be a good idea. I know that the Avantis have a vacuum gauge in the panel, but I really don't trust the accuracy of the panel gauge. I souunds like you have either worn or broken rings or a collapsed or broken piston skirt. Bud

      Comment


      • #4
        quote:However, no effect using two idle adjusting screws on front of carb. Have to set idle using throttle adjusting screw.
        quote:Plugs eventually foul out, some gas soaked and some oil soaked, some with soot.
        You've identified at least part of your problem. Until all the basic air, fuel and mechanical systems have been verified to be functioning, how can it be expected to run correctly? Agree, check the floats, check for vacuum leaks, remove the idle screws and blow compressed air through the passages.

        CASOs, hide your eyes here
        quote:Plug wires and distributor cap OK
        How do you know they are "OK"? These are inexpensive parts and when chasing a problem, if the ignition system isn't new this year, replace it ALL. New coil, points, condensor, rotor, cap, wires and plugs.

        Next, a cold compression test, both dry and wet, is a must. Even if the carb is perfect, worn rings, burned or sticking valves will cause the symptoms you describe.

        Once the compression is to spec and the carb and ignition is to spec, then a vacuum gauge and/or dwell tach can aid with the fine tuning.



        thnx, jack vines

        PackardV8
        PackardV8

        Comment


        • #5
          quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

          quote:However, no effect using two idle adjusting screws on front of carb. Have to set idle using throttle adjusting screw.
          quote:Plugs eventually foul out, some gas soaked and some oil soaked, some with soot.
          You've identified at least part of your problem. Until all the basic air, fuel and mechanical systems have been verified to be functioning, how can it be expected to run correctly? Agree, check the floats, check for vacuum leaks, remove the idle screws and blow compressed air through the passages.

          CASOs, hide your eyes here
          quote:Plug wires and distributor cap OK
          How do you know they are "OK"? These are inexpensive parts and when chasing a problem, if the ignition system isn't new this year, replace it ALL. New coil, points, condensor, rotor, cap, wires and plugs.

          Next, a cold compression test, both dry and wet, is a must. Even if the carb is perfect, worn rings, burned or sticking valves will cause the symptoms you describe.

          Once the compression is to spec and the carb and ignition is to spec, then a vacuum gauge and/or dwell tach can aid with the fine tuning.



          thnx, jack vines

          PackardV8
          sigpic
          Jack, in Montana

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks, Jack,

            I am new to using this forum, I usually call Jon Meyer or John Metzger as I have taken my Avanti's to both of them when all of us were in California. I am currently in Montana and have a compression gauge I got on the internet which won't hold the pressure. Initial cold compression stroke is 75 psi on cyl #1. Try attaching a gauge to cyl #7. I get cuts on my hands even removing #7 plug. I am 70 years old with fragile skin, take aspirin with resultant large bruises.

            I doubt if my dwell meter is any good (Sun) and I don't want to spend a lot of money on new wires, points, (I bought some points from Car Quest but they didn't look right, so I only replaced condensor). Stuff bought from Studebaler vendors is so expensive, mainly due to shipping costs. I have bought loads of stuff from Jon and Ed Reynolds. I don't want to spend a lot of money replacing stuff that is relatively new
            on an engine that probably needs rings and valves.

            One clue is that only the right hand point seem to "spark" although I filed the left points, and they look good. My feeling is probably that this old, tired, 95,000 mile engine needs an overhaul of valves and rings and whatever else is needed. A better solution would to be a swap to a modern V-8 with fuel injection and electronic ignition. These old beasts are not worth spending $40,000-$50,000 on unless you have more money than brains.

            Another thing: I drained out two quarts of oil (Castrol Syntec 20W50)
            after finding the dipstick showed overfilled when I only put in six quarts and a new filter. That left the oil level right where it should be, which makes me think I probably have a leaky diaphragm on the fuel pump, although it pumps a lot of gas into the carb (and probably into the oil pan as well.) I have overhauled the fuel pump on my R-1 twice, with that problem the last time. Never on the R-2 which we are talking about. Thanks again.

            Jack in Montana
            sigpic
            Jack, in Montana

            Comment


            • #7
              My first question is when did the problem appear?

              Has the R-2 run correctly? And then wouldn't run correctly? Or did it run poorly when you obtained it?

              The answers matter. If it ran well and then didn't, and you "fixed" something, it may be easier to diagnose.

              Does it smoke? Blue, white or black?

              An R-1 carb will work just fine on an R-2 without the blower hooked up. If the blower is hooked up, you would be getting fuel more places than in the oil ...

              Certain screws int the R-2 carb are sealed with permatex #2. It also has a seal for the accelerator pump, and a cavity along the base of the card to effect a vacuum seal for the throttle shaft to not leak. From the factory, the base gasket is also thicker (or doubled).

              The standard, reinforced brass floats are able to take nearly 10 ponds of boost, so I've read. If they aren't collapsed, they may be leaking. That is easy to test with a pan of boiling water.

              If the mixture screws don't respond, you likely have a vacuum leak somewhere. Or the carb is plugged. Do you have the correct base gasket? When you rebuilt the carb, did you soak the parts overnight in carb cleaner and then blow the passages out with compressed air? Or did you just regasket it?

              If you took the top off of the carb, and put it back on, jou could have seriously bent one (or both) of the metering rods. They should be removed and installed before/after the top is to avoid bending them. If they are bent, you will get the same incorrect fuel issues that you have too.


              ========================
              63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
              Martinez, CA

              Comment


              • #8
                quote:Originally posted by fmarshall

                My first question is when did the problem appear?

                Has the R-2 run correctly? And then wouldn't run correctly? Or did it run poorly when you obtained it?

                This has progressively run worse and worser since I got it over 12 years ago. It never accelerated well from stop, but ran well at full throttle. All my efforts have previously been on the carb, where everything was soaked and "blown" out, and bent metering rods replaced. All the pertinent openings are sealed with Permatex

                The answers matter. If it ran well and then didn't, and you "fixed" something, it may be easier to diagnose.

                Does it smoke? Blue, white or black?

                Smoke can vary from white to black. Generally black or blue, but not a lot. I've seen lots of cars run with blue smoke coming out the exhaust like from the stack of a steam engine, and assumed they needed rings or valve guide inserts. Nothing like that here.

                An R-1 carb will work just fine on an R-2 without the blower hooked up. If the blower is hooked up, you would be getting fuel more places than in the oil ...

                Certain screws int the R-2 carb are sealed with permatex #2. It also has a seal for the accelerator pump, and a cavity along the base of the card to effect a vacuum seal for the throttle shaft to not leak. From the factory, the base gasket is also thicker (or doubled).

                All this has done correctly, the standard doublestapled gasket for the air horn/body and triple stapled gasket at the base.

                The standard, reinforced brass floats are able to take nearly 10 ponds of boost, so I've read. If they aren't collapsed, they may be leaking. That is easy to test with a pan of boiling water.

                They show no signs of leak or collapse, never filled with gas.

                If the mixture screws don't respond, you likely have a vacuum leak somewhere. Or the carb is plugged. Do you have the correct base gasket? When you rebuilt the carb, did you soak the parts overnight in carb cleaner and then blow the passages out with compressed air? Or did you just regasket it?

                Did all of above.

                If you took the top off of the carb, and put it back on, jou could have seriously bent one (or both) of the metering rods. They should be removed and installed before/after the top is to avoid bending them. If they are bent, you will get the same incorrect fuel issues that you have too.

                Been there, done that, and replaced metering rods and jets with new standard rods and jets from Jon Meyer.

                Thanks for the help!


                ========================
                63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
                Martinez, CA

                sigpic
                Jack, in Montana

                Comment


                • #9
                  quote:Originally posted by Bud

                  I would recommend running a compression check and or a leak down test to check for worn or broken parts in the upper cylinders. Connecting as vacuum gauge to the intake manifold and checking the readings would also be a good idea. I know that the Avantis have a vacuum gauge in the panel, but I really don't trust the accuracy of the panel gauge. I souunds like you have either worn or broken rings or a collapsed or broken piston skirt. Bud
                  sigpic
                  Jack, in Montana

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've almost given up, so today I took the car out of the garage and took a lot of pictures, for future "For Sale" in "Turning Wheels" and ebay. Also took it down to the best shop in this town of 7,500 (Anaconda, MT, elev 5280 feet). I also have a '46 M-5, '48 Champion Starlight, '56 Sky Hawk, and '64 Cruiser.

                    I have also owned and sold, in addition to the other Avanti (R-1), a '48 Commander Starlight, '50 Champ 2 dr, '57 Packard Clipper-baker, and a '64 Daytona Wagonaire. I overhauled (valves, rings, inserts) the '48 Champion engine in 1955 and it still runs better than the Avanti. I am a retired general surgeon, not a mechanic.

                    I trust the mechanic-owner and the mechanics there, but they don't see a lot of these old beasts with carburetors and superchargers, mechanical distributors and points. He will check compression and try to get it to run right. I don't have a good compression gauge or dwell meter. The car started and made it to the shop in 1st gear running at 2000 rpm. His comment: "It runs a little rich." Thanks, Mr. Marshall

                    Jack in Montana
                    sigpic
                    Jack, in Montana

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      FWIW, around $3,500 will do a complete professional rebuild on an R2 long block, as long as your basic hard parts (heads, block, crank, cam, rods, lifters) are good for re-grinding. This would be better-than-factory tolerances and machine work, with all new wear parts (pistons, rings, bearings, valves, guides, springs)

                      We're just over the hill in Spokane, so it is very possible to get your engine here and home. Let us know if we can help.

                      thnx, jack vines

                      PackardV8
                      PackardV8

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

                        FWIW, around $3,500 will do a complete professional rebuild on an R2 long block, as long as your basic hard parts (heads, block, crank, cam, rods, lifters) are good for re-grinding. This would be better-than-factory tolerances and machine work, with all new wear parts (pistons, rings, bearings, valves, guides, springs)

                        We're just over the hill in Spokane, so it is very possible to get your engine here and home. Let us know if we can help.

                        thnx, jack vines

                        PackardV8
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Thnx Jack, that is an option. Do you have a web site or a card in "Turning Wheels"? It would probably be easier for me to trailer the whole car to Spokane than pull the engine, then crate and ship it.
                        Of course, I could trailer the rig to Duncan Falls, Ohio, just as well. I am going to Springfield, MO in October to visit my son & grand daughters. Then again, I also have a home in So. Cal and could trailer it there, to one of several Studebaker experts. (I should try to put pictures of my "fleet" on the SDC Forum.)

                        Jack in Montana
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        sigpic
                        Jack, in Montana

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jack, you've stated that both carbs work fine on the R1, so I think it's safe to say the carb is not at fault here. And the supercharge puts out practically nothing at idle, so I don't think we can blame supercharger boost for the problem. With the plugs sooting up and running rich, we can expect the vacuum at idle is too low to suck the power valve pistons down against their springs.

                          Since you mention a clanking sound in the front left, I'd be looking for a problem with the valves or rings, something that causes a loss in vacuum.

                          Gord Richmond, posting from Dick Steinkamp's computer.

                          Dick Steinkamp
                          Bellingham, WA

                          Dick Steinkamp
                          Bellingham, WA

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ________________________________________________________________________________ __________

                            Since you mention a clanking sound in the front left, I'd be looking for a problem with the valves or rings, something that causes a loss in vacuum.
                            Gord Richmond, posting from Dick Steinkamp's computer.

                            ________________________________________________________________________________ __________

                            Gord, I think you're right. The Avanti is in the shop now for compression tests and other items that I don't have the test equipment to do.

                            Jack in Montana
                            sigpic
                            Jack, in Montana

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              quote:Originally posted by jnfweber

                              ________________________________________________________________________________ __________

                              Since you mention a clanking sound in the front left, I'd be looking for a problem with the valves or rings, something that causes a loss in vacuum.
                              Gord Richmond, posting from Dick Steinkamp's computer.

                              ________________________________________________________________________________ __________

                              Gord, I think you're right. The Avanti is in the shop now for compression tests and other items that I don't have the test equipment to do.

                              Jack in Montana


                              My vote is a bad pump, dumping raw gas into the pan. The pump is on the right front too.
                              JDP/Maryland
                              JDP Maryland

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