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frame correction 1961 hawk

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  • frame correction 1961 hawk

    Found a new project car in west virginia and today was the first day cleaning it out and looking at it, when I picked it up I noticed I could not get the hood down I did not think much of it, today I found that the car I bought from this guy was in an accident, the accident was so serious that it misalighned the front and the rear like it was sandwiched, I don't know whether to get my money back or go ahead and fix the car. I thought studebaker people were honest, most of the people in the hobby are very honest about things like this, if he had told me I would have not bought the car, is it that hard to bring this car back into alighnment? the hood will not close, the trunk hits the bumper before it closes, if you are looking at it, it doesen't give you any indication that something happened to it.

    Studebakers forever!
    Studebakers forever!

  • #2
    A shop that specializes in frame alignment, especially if it's been in business for a few decades, should have no problem bringing it back to spec. Large body shops have alignment racks but may or may not have the experience or specifications for these full-frame cars.

    I have a Motor's Crash Book with complete frame dimensions for Hawks through 1957. Don't know if 1961 would match. I can make a copy of the chart, if that would help.

    Brad Johnson
    Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
    33 Rockne 10
    51 commander Starlight
    53 Commander Starlight

    previously: 63 Cruiser, 62 Regal VI, 60 VI convertible, 50 LandCruiser
    "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

    Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
    Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
    sigpic'33 Rockne 10, '51 Commander Starlight, '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée"

    Comment


    • #3
      OK,
      Since you have posted this in a few places, let's keep the tech stuff here...
      1) Your trunk lid is probably fine. The trunk lid lower lip hitting the bumper is common. It probably just needs hinge alignment, hinge rebuild, or new springs (or a combination of all three). After you get that part done, then you will definitely need new rubber and then adjust the latch. This is a common malady on all C/K Studebakers.
      2) Your hood won't close properly. First. Is the hood bent? (A slight bow in the hood lines along the side lines, especially right in front of the doubled metal six inches in front of the rear hinge pin). This is also common in C/K Stude's and is not indicative of a wreck. It can happen quite easily when one opens and closes the hood 'without' pulling it forward as you open it and close it. That can cause it to not close right. This is something that can be repaired, and an aftermarket 'stiffner' is available to prevent this from happening again.
      3) How are the seam gaps on the doors? Are they even on top (front to rear)? Are the seam gaps even (top to bottom) at the back edge of the door?
      4) What condition is the 'batwing' under the front of the cabin? Is there a lot of rust on the bottom?
      5) How is the condition of the front body mounts (lower firewall to frame mount, right and left). Any rusted out spots? Any buckles?
      6) What is the condition of the bottom of the frame right near the front of the rear spring mounting plate? How is the bottom of the frame from that point all the way to the top of the rear axle kickup?
      Rust in any of 4,5,6 will cause body panel misalignment problems, and may look like accident damage, but is in fact....just rust damage.

      Before you condemn the Studebaker world, you need to ascertain exactly what may, or may not be wrong.

      Have you had the car on a frame rack? Even if you have, I have rarely seen a Studebaker that measured perfectly 'square'. It would have to be really tweaked bad to be as bad as you describe.

      I do hope this info is useful.
      Jeff[8D]



      quote:Originally posted by studelover

      Found a new project car in west virginia and today was the first day cleaning it out and looking at it, when I picked it up I noticed I could not get the hood down I did not think much of it, today I found that the car I bought from this guy was in an accident, the accident was so serious that it misalighned the front and the rear like it was sandwiched, I don't know whether to get my money back or go ahead and fix the car. I thought studebaker people were honest, most of the people in the hobby are very honest about things like this, if he had told me I would have not bought the car, is it that hard to bring this car back into alighnment? the hood will not close, the trunk hits the bumper before it closes, if you are looking at it, it doesen't give you any indication that something happened to it.

      Studebakers forever!


      DEEPNHOCK at Gmail.com
      Brooklet, Georgia
      '37 Coupe Express (never ending project)
      '37 Coupe Express Trailer (project)
      '61 Hawk (project)
      http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

      HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

      Jeff


      Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



      Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

      Comment


      • #4
        In my experience, as long as the body and frame is solid, straightening and aligning a body and/or frame is not that tough for a qualified frame shop.

        Maybe the seller doesn't know much about cars, bought it to fix up, and lost interest before even starting; why automatically assume he's a crook?

        Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
        Parish, central NY 13131
        http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

        Comment


        • #5
          Also- if you could post or send me some pics, I could give you an educated opinion on what's wrong; I did that type of work for 20 years.

          One more thing: It is posible, even likely, that ANY group can have a dishonest person in their midst... to think otherwise is asking for trouble! But it's unfair to jump to conclusions also, especially when dealing with 46 year old cars...

          Let's have a look, and we'll help get this car back on the road!![8D]

          Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
          Parish, central NY 13131
          http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

          Comment


          • #6
            OK, looking at the situation, I can see your point. He has 5 or 6 cars on his wall that he has restored, all hawks.I asked him why he did not want to restore this one and he never gave me a good answer. What tipped me off that it was in an accident was, I took the trunk lid off and there is a small creases in the wing, then when you look at the floor there are small creases on the left side, looking at the bumperthere is a nice gap on the right side, the left side dosen't have any gap at all. The front bumper has a gap on the drivers sside and the right side you can't see the chrome moulding at the front of the hood strip. At the left rear side of the hood there is a crease however it dosen't interfere with the opening and closing of the hood it's there because an impact.this pic shows the hood closed this is as far as it will go.[img][/img]

            Studebakers forever!
            Studebakers forever!

            Comment


            • #7
              Well it is clear that what DeepnHock (Jeff) said about frame RUST is definetely applicable here! This appears to be a rusted out, rust belt car!
              StudeRich
              Second Generation Stude Driver,
              Proud '54 Starliner Owner

              Comment


              • #8
                Based on this one picture it doesn't look wrecked to me- bumper appears straight and level, grille and openings look straight, etc. In any case, I don't see anything that would be a problem to fix!

                The bigger issue is all that rust- that can cost serious money to fix [B)] Have someone knowledgeable about cars, preferably with Stude knowledge, look over the frame, floors, and body mounts carefully, and get a clear picture of what it's really going to need to restore it! ANYTHING can be fixed- and so can this one! But if your old car knowledge/experience is not very extensive and you don't know what you've really got, you can get overwhelmed very quickly

                If you're of a mind to, and have the patience and commitment, you can get great satisfaction from bringing a neglected old Stude back to it's former glory! If you're not up to it, sell this car and save up for one in better condition to start with...

                Either way, keep this in mind: Whether you're doing a complete frame-off resto- or finishing details on a show car- or anything in between, all the parts and info you'll need are available! And best of all, this forum and it's great (and expert!) folks are here for you all the way through!!

                Truth be told, that last paragraph is a large part of why I've fallen so deeply for Studebakers!! [8D]

                Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
                Parish, central NY 13131
                http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

                Comment


                • #9
                  I understand what you are saying and it is true however I think you are missing the point. It's not that I can't fix it, I was sold something that was not what it was represented to be, honesty is very important to me. I talked this guy three times then went up to see him. if he had told me the truth I would have made a choice. I could not sell this car to anyone I know because of it's condition. I would not do that to my friends or any one in the hobby.The damage here is so slight in what you see it's deceivingtwo inches in front and 1 1/2 in the rear, If you look closely at the head light bezel you see that it's not there, I found a cracked one in his other parts car.I have some real good people around me it's no problem getting them to fix it, they value my help and opinion. When they see this they will wounder if I have lost my mind. The seller knew I wanted tofix this car why else would I be looking to get a title.

                  Studebakers forever!
                  Studebakers forever!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I hear you; but what caught my ear was, "I thought Studebaker people were honest", inferring that you've now found out they're not... my experience is they're a high-quality bunch, and to make a blanket statement like that when you can't yet know if even your seller did anything wrong is unfair![V]

                    That said, I feel you may be overestimating th seller's knowledge of damage. Speaking for myself, when I look at a car that needs that much work, it never occurs to me that panel fit would indicate collision damage. Anything can happen to a car in 4 plus decades of use and deterioration; who knows, maybe it was wrecked 30 years ago, and no one knows! If I had bought this and found damage, I would have taken it in stride and chalked it up to part of the deal, and just fixed it! If you buy a really nice car and find this, it'd be a different story; but if you buy a rough project car, finding things like this are common! The pic shows the car in a lot with other project cars; what leads you to think the seller has given all the cars a really close examination, or that he'd know what he's looking at if he did?

                    Call the seller if you want to- but I'd be surprised if he didn't say, "You bought an as-is rough project car- what did you expect?" I'm still recommending to forget it and concentrate on what's important- get the car fixed and back on the road- or get one that needs less work!

                    If you have "good people" around you, meaning knowledgeable and skilled, the only reason they'd think you've lost your mind is if they feel it's beyond your capability- either financially or in the area of patience

                    Robert K. Andrews Owner- IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
                    Parish, central NY 13131
                    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2358680/1

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, the front fenders are pretty ugly and the floor and frame may be nearly gone but on the bright side, it looks like nearly all of the chrome and stainless pieces are there and in decent shape (except the missing wiper arms). The chrome looks good on the bumper and the wheel opening trim is there and looks decent. If the body or frame is totally shot, I'm sure there's a few stripped bodies around to be had that are in better shape.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't know if this helps . But my 48 had a similar problem. It was the boxs that sit on the bat wing and welded to the floor board. They were rusted and gave way. I took all the body mounts loose raised the body to get everything lined up and then welded the new boxes in along with new floor boards. Everything works good now.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Based on this picture you posted on another forum, it does not look like anything was hidden. That dent is clearly visible, and I cannot imaging how a collision could cause that dent without having massive damage to the body tub underneath. That fin damage looks like something hit the fin from above. But that is just an opinion based on a picture.

                          The headlight bezel being missing is easy to understand. The whole headlight bucket area of the front fender is rotted off!
                          There will be a thousand dollars tied up in just finding two decent front fenders for this car, accident or not.
                          The rot showing in your pictures everywhere else on this car is typical for a rust belt Hawk, and something that no seller could ever hide, lie about, minimize, or talk around. It is there. It is obvious.
                          Let us know who the seller was, so we can hear the other side of this story...from him.
                          I am sure that it will be interesting.
                          Jeff[8D]





                          quote:Originally posted by studelover

                          I understand what you are saying and it is true however I think you are missing the point. It's not that I can't fix it, I was sold something that was not what it was represented to be, honesty is very important to me. I talked this guy three times then went up to see him. if he had told me the truth I would have made a choice. I could not sell this car to anyone I know because of it's condition. I would not do that to my friends or any one in the hobby.The damage here is so slight in what you see it's deceivingtwo inches in front and 1 1/2 in the rear, If you look closely at the head light bezel you see that it's not there, I found a cracked one in his other parts car.I have some real good people around me it's no problem getting them to fix it, they value my help and opinion. When they see this they will wounder if I have lost my mind. The seller knew I wanted tofix this car why else would I be looking to get a title.

                          Studebakers forever!
                          HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

                          Jeff


                          Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



                          Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            quote:Originally posted by studelover
                            I asked him why he did not want to restore this one and he never gave me a good answer.
                            What I don't get if you didn't get a good answer why did you buy the car? I've bought cars sight unseen and haven't been burned because I've talked to the sellers and if you can't get a straight answer then you should just walk away.

                            This car looks like its pretty decent to restore. Most of the trim looks to be in place and the body looks straight. I don't really see anything indicative of being in an accident. If the frame is slightly misaligned maybe it happened years ago before this owner got the car, because the paint and body panels look in decent shape with no major deformities aside from the rust and they all look to have the same paint. And an accident that would cause a frame to be misaligned would almost have to do major damage to at least the front or rear quarters. It may have been in an accident and just put back together or repaired with out the frame being checked a long time ago. Just my .02

                            John Reich
                            Long Island Chapter Spotlight Editor & Webmaster
                            John Reich

                            1955 Studebaker President
                            1960 Studebaker Lark (For Sale)
                            1962 Studebaker GT Hawk

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I wanna echo what bams50 said: "I hear you; but what caught my ear was, "I thought Studebaker people were honest", inferring that you've now found out they're not... my experience is they're a high-quality bunch, and to make a blanket statement like that when you can't yet know if even your seller did anything wrong is unfair!"

                              One bad apple doesn't mean the world of Studebakering's collapsing in on itself. Your phrasing makes it seem like we all need to re-evaluate our assesment of Studebaker folks. I resent that inferrance.
                              Yes, in 34 years of Studebakering, I've met some deceptive sorts, but I didn't just paint the whole community with black paint as a result. Anyway..... BTW, be it noted that we've been accused of having a "clique" amongst us forum members and I'm proud TO BE amongst that group, if in fact it does exist outside of the accusers perceptions. For that matter, SDC is a "clique" of sorts.

                              So, as Jeff said, you're gonna have a thousand bucks in fixing or replacing those two front fenders alone. In fact, a thousand is probably a conservative estimate unless you plan to patch and repair all the rot by yourself. And even if you do do that, what's your time worth?
                              I'd have looked at this particular example as a fair source of parts at best. Of course, I'm used to seeing lots LESS rusted examples out my way. But, the fact remains that the cost of shipping a solid example east is gonna be way less than patching a rusty one together in the end.
                              Like the others here - without being able to walk around and closely examine the car in person, the few "facts" and fotos you've provided don't convince me that someone was trying to slip you a fast one.

                              Miscreant adrift in
                              the BerStuda Triangle


                              1957 Transtar 1/2ton
                              1960 Larkvertible V8
                              1958 Provincial wagon
                              1953 Commander coupe

                              No deceptive flags to prove I'm patriotic - no biblical BS to impress - just ME and Studebakers - as it should be.

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