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**N8N** · 05-18-2009, 01:41 PM

I believe that is 100% correct. If someone deducted points for the park lamps coming on in the park lamp switch position but off in the headlamp position they must have been looking at too many Avanti IIs

If you feel that this is going to become contentious, or feel like you need backup documentation, might want to drop Daniel Stern a line. I believe what you are looking for is historical changes to FMVSS 108.

good luck

nate

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55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

**JGK 940** · 05-18-2009, 01:55 PM

quote:Originally posted by Thomas63R2

On my '63 Avanti when I turn on the headlights the front park lamps turn off. The turn signal function still works fine.

For every American car built prior to the 1968 model year, this is exactly how it's supposed to work. When your car was built it was actually illegal, in most states, for any vehicle to be in motion on a public road with its parking lights lit. Those lights were initially intended to show where a stationary vehicle sat (on, say, a dark country road) without blinding an oncoming driver. That's why they're called parking lights.

The parking-lights-on-with-headlights thing started concurrently with (and was mandated, IIRC, by the same Fedrulations as) the lighted front and rear side markers that took effect for '68. The new idea was that the general outline of any new vehicle should be plainly visible, whether parked or in motion, should one or more of its headlights or other bulbs burn out. This is why those side markers must also be reflectors.

Anyone who would deduct points from a MY '63 automobile because the parking lights go out when the headlights come on should not be judging that category until he/she catches up on a little automotive history.

HOWEVER: it has always been, and will always remain, simple good manners to use only parking lights while hunting for a spot in a drive-in movie, especially after the main feature's started

Keoni Dibelka / HiloFoto
In Hawai'i; on Hawai'i; on the Windward Side
If da salt air never chew 'em up bumbye da lava will...

**Gunslinger** · 05-18-2009, 02:27 PM

I went and checked my '70 Avanti and the running lights stay on when the headlights are activated.

Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

**JBOYLE** · 05-18-2009, 02:41 PM

JGK 940...Thanks for the history lesson, I thought my car has an issue too.
It's the oldest car I've ever had, so us young guys don't always know these things!

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

**JGK 940** · 05-18-2009, 02:48 PM

quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE

[blue][font=Arial]JGK 940...Thanks for the history lesson

My pleasure... nice to know getting older'n dirt is good for something... (now where's that smileyface with the long white beard?)

Keoni Dibelka / HiloFoto
In Hawai'i; on Hawai'i; on the Windward Side
If da salt air never chew 'em up bumbye da lava will...

**Bud** · 05-18-2009, 03:00 PM

I checked my 63 Avanti and the parking lights turn off when the headlight switch is activated. Whoever it was that judged in the Avanti class at La Palma last year doesn't know about the Studebaker Avanti's. Bud

**Thomas63R2** · 05-18-2009, 04:08 PM

Thanks for all the great replies. I haven't owned my Avanti for a million years, so I didn't question the points deduction.

Maybe everyone else knows who he is, but who is Daniel Stern?

Thomas

Long time hot rodder
Packrat junk collector
'63 Avanti R2 4 speed

**N8N** · 05-18-2009, 04:48 PM

see here:

http://danielsternlighting.com/

not a Stude guy, but knowledgeable about both old cars and automotive lighting. Won't steer you wrong if you want to upgrade your lighting either.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

**PlainBrownR2** · 05-18-2009, 04:52 PM

Beat me to the punch, ah well [

)].
But yeah, he his site supplies lighting as well as information on setup and DOT regulations. At the moment he only seems to have the HID ban on his website that was handed down by the NHTSA, but if you drop him an email he will be able to supply you with an answer on lighting setups.

[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/DSC00017-1-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/DSC00015-3-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

**Skip Lackie** · 05-19-2009, 04:33 AM

quote:Originally posted by JGK 940

quote:Originally posted by Thomas63R2

On my '63 Avanti when I turn on the headlights the front park lamps turn off. The turn signal function still works fine.

For every American car built prior to the 1968 model year, this is exactly how it's supposed to work. When your car was built it was actually illegal, in most states, for any vehicle to be in motion on a public road with its parking lights lit. Those lights were initially intended to show where a stationary vehicle sat (on, say, a dark country road) without blinding an oncoming driver. That's why they're called parking lights.

The parking-lights-on-with-headlights thing started concurrently with (and was mandated, IIRC, by the same Fedrulations as) the lighted front and rear side markers that took effect for '68. The new idea was that the general outline of any new vehicle should be plainly visible, whether parked or in motion, should one or more of its headlights or other bulbs burn out. This is why those side markers must also be reflectors.

Anyone who would deduct points from a MY '63 automobile because the parking lights go out when the headlights come on should not be judging that category until he/she catches up on a little automotive history.

HOWEVER: it has always been, and will always remain, simple good manners to use only parking lights while hunting for a spot in a drive-in movie, especially after the main feature's started

Keoni Dibelka / HiloFoto
In Hawai'i; on Hawai'i; on the Windward Side
If da salt air never chew 'em up bumbye da lava will...

Excellent (and very complete) answer. I started to respond with the same info, got diverted, and am now glad I didn't. You did a much better job than I would have.

BTW, to those who weren't alive in 1968: this Federal requirement was a big deal for us car nuts, and represented one of the earliest excursions into Federal rule-making on vehicles -- so it was a date that we remembered. The requirement for PCV valves in 1962 (Calif) and 63 (everwhere else) was really a more significant action, but PCVs weren't as visible as the new running lights and parking lights that stayed on. As I recall, the first such federal requirement was for sealed-beam headlights in 1940.

Skip Lackie
Washington DC

**JGK 940** · 05-20-2009, 05:48 PM

quote:Originally posted by Skip Lackie
Excellent (and very complete) answer.

Thanks for the hat tip.

quote:You did a much better job than I would have.

Somehow I doubt that [8D].

Got to admit, though, not much makes me feel OLD faster than remembering clearly things that happened before a lot of folks around here were born. Can't wait until a barn somewhere in rural California coughs up a Lark with a VSAD still hanging off its radiator... [

)]

Keoni Dibelka / HiloFoto
In Hawai'i; on Hawai'i; on the Windward Side
If da salt air never chew 'em up bumbye da lava will...

**N8N** · 05-21-2009, 05:50 AM

along the same lines...

I know for a fact that '68 Chrysler products had lighted sidemarkers. However, *1969* models only had reflectors on the sides. wonder how they got away with that? I don't believe that reflector-only would pass muster today, but I may be mistaken.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

**N8N** · 05-21-2009, 05:55 AM

quote:Originally posted by JGK 940

Got to admit, though, not much makes me feel OLD faster than remembering clearly things that happened before a lot of folks around here were born. Can't wait until a barn somewhere in rural California coughs up a Lark with a VSAD still hanging off its radiator... [

)]

OK, I guess you're going to feel old again, because I'd really like to know what you're talking about

I knew about the parking light thing having had a few cars older than I but I haven't a clue what a VSAD is or what it'd have to do with the radiator...

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

**Dick Steinkamp** · 05-21-2009, 06:22 AM

If you WANT your parking lights to stay on with the headlights, just more the feed wire for the parking lights on the headlight switch over to the same terminal that feeds the dash lights.

You say...

"last years judging sheet there was a points deduct for the way my park lamps work."

Could there have been an issue with your parking lights OTHER than they didn't stay on with the headlights? (bulb out, rear work but not front, wrong color front lenses (or bulbs), etc.)

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

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