Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Turning Wheels Cooperator article on oil testing.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Engine: Turning Wheels Cooperator article on oil testing.

    First, let me state that I am not trying to criticize the article in the latest rag, nor am I claiming to know more than the author, nor do I think his findings are incorrect. I only wish to clarify what this oil testing was actually doing, and what the results actually mean.

    The article lists several oils, which have had some ZDDP/Phosphorus additive mixed with them. It shows a resultant PSI finding, and would seem to justify not adding anything to the oil based upon this PSI reading. Without knowing how this test was applied, I assert that the findings are useless. For example, if two pieces of metal are clamped together, and the PSI is the force used to make the two slip upon each other, then the VR1 oil looks horrible compared to the others. I don't imagine that this is the case, but who knows, the article does not state the method of testing used.

    Also, it is my understanding that ZDDP/phosphorus when mixed with oil, doesn't really do anything for the lubrication quality of the oil until it is "run in", so to speak, and has a chance to leave the deposit of a micro layer of phosphorus on the base metals. It is this micro layer that builds up over time and use, that is the wear preventive, by providing a super slick, boundary layer that prevents metal to metal contact. So with that in mind, to test the oil without the wear in that allows for the deposition of the phosphorus layer, is not really a valid test at all.

    Now I gotta tell you that I am not an oil engineer, nor an expert at anything much, and I only know what I read, much of which comes from the internet and is questionable at best. Given that knowledge base, or lack of it, I'd like to understand what these test results actually mean. This probably has to do with the test method, and how it relates to the real world application, with micro depositions, high and low temperatures, contamination, etc. But, I'd love to learn more... My personal opinion is that we worry way too much about oils, but it is an interesting subject. I mostly use whatever is cheapest at Wallyworld.

    MAYBE, it is a case of "Tell me what results you want, and I'll design a test to give you that result" . ??? (Maybe not.)
    Corley

  • #2
    Corley,

    Thank you for your opinion. In your first line, I think it is prejudicial for you to call our award winning Turning Wheels magazine a rag. It is certainly worth much more than a rag. It is one thing to state without facts why something is useless without contacting the author and getting clarification on points in your criticism. It is without merit. to do otherwise.

    We have a wealth of talent here and in Turning Wheels that can weigh in on this article. Jack Vines is one that comes to mind as he have many years of properly rebuilding and maintaining Studebaker and Packard engines. Jim Pepper is a performance Studebaker Guru as well as Bob Palma for years in academia to provide a great service for us that own Studebaker cars and trucks. I also trust what Matt Burnette does and says as a 30 year old re-builder of cars since his teens.

    When you set a negative tone, don't be surprised with negative response.

    Bob Miles
    Some people's mind is made up so don't confuse them with the facts

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Corley View Post
      ... My personal opinion is that we worry way too much about oils, but it is an interesting subject.
      That’s always been my own (uneducated) opinion.

      Has anyone actually ever experienced an engine failure in a Studebaker that was due to “bad” engine oil? Or a “lack of” ZDDP?
      Last edited by mbstude; 12-30-2022, 05:57 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        There are thousands of pages written about ZDDP. What it is. What it does. And why it was used, and then removed.
        But, in a nutshell. ZDDP is to add a chemical barrier between the camshaft and the flat tappet lifter.
        It was removed (by legislation) because it caused damage to the the O2 sensor, and catalytic converter material. The automotive and truck industry transitioned away from flat tappet valve actuators to roller lifter and camshaft designs. This left a portion of the aftermarket without coverage. Racing oils, and some diesel engine oils were the work around and kept ZDDP in them because they were 'off highway' and few race cars have catalytic converters.
        Other than that, oil analysis is used mainly by fleets to look at trends. Trends in contamination rates, metals in the oil, adverse chemicals in the oil, and the depletion of the proprietary chemical packages in the oil.
        If you are running a flat tappet camshaft... Add ZDDP, or use a ZDDP substitute, or use ZDDP racing oil.
        All that being said, my knowledge is/was based on a long career in the filtration business with a lot of the largest HD Truck fleets in the country. Being retired makes my knowledge useful, but not up to date. There are no shortcuts. Your camshaft lobes and lifter/tappets depend on your choice of the correct lubricant.
        And to add....
        Oil analysis methodology and laboratories can vary. Testing parameters are almost always set before testing. Some labs are created by the oil companies and specialize in that particular brand. A truly independent oil analysis company just tells you the chemicals, metals, and contaminants in the sample supplied. The analysis is usually used over time to develop trends on a particular engine to determine service intervals, or repairs needed. Rarely is the analysis used to condemn a product, unless that product is deemed inadequate based on test results.
        Last edited by DEEPNHOCK; 12-30-2022, 03:41 PM.
        HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

        Jeff


        Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



        Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

        Comment


        • #5
          I read the article and agree 100% about adding anything to engine oil especially any of the so called zinc additives. I believe that the major oil refiners have tested their oils and I'm not going to try to second guess them. I don't necessarily agree with not using an oil rated for diesel service as long as it has a spark ignition rating and certified for use in both diesel and gasoline engines. I've been using either Chevron Delo 400 or Shell Rotella T 15W-40 in my engines since 1981 when we started running class 8 trucks. The internals of my engines are spotless and I can't remember when I had to adjust valves on any of them. There could be an issue with the newer diesel oils as there is no rating on them for spark ignition engines. I did however contact the Shell lubricant rep about a year ago to inquire about the new generation of Shell Rotella T 15W-40 and he said that it is good for use in older gasoline engines but isn't SN+ or SP rated because of the zinc and phosphorus content and catalytic convertor and O2 sensor contamination. I also agree with mbstude, I don't know of anyone that has had an oil related engine failure other than due to poor maintenance and who's oil is in the engine at the time of failure isn't the cause of the failure, lack of routine maintenance is. Bud

          Comment


          • #6
            Fully agree w/ post #5 - The Chevron tech group provided the same info and guidance 3-4 years ago as to use of their Delo in older flat tappet engines. the agreement extended to the reason it is not labeled for "gas powered engines" and that other chemicals make up for the lack of ZDDP.
            Also several years ago a Corvette oriented magazine article posted the same info - plus the possible danger of adding a non tested chemical to a carefully designed motor oil, esp. if too much ZDDP is the result.

            Considering that no testing (that I am aware of) has specifically tested/evaluated any of the above methods of lubrication, it appears we are on our own as to which is "the best" - As with many things regarding our old cars - It is your car, your decision.
            paultk

            Comment


            • #7
              An example of the 15/40 Delo is my '93 Subaru Impreza. I bought it from a guy that bought it new, and always used Delo 15/40, so I have been staying with it. It has Cats on it, and oxy sensors. It had bout 136K miles on it when I bought it. It has about 220K miles on it now. And, being a 'small' motor it runs above 3000RPM a lot. I haven't done more than filters, plugs, wires, and a coil pack since I have owned it. It doesn't burn oil, and I have not had to do anything else to the motor. So, I have to call BS on saying that the Delo is bad for gas motors, cats and oxy sensors. I have and do use 20/50 Castrol in all my other vehicles, including my '53 Commander Coupe with a '56 Sweepstakes 289 in it. While I haven't put a lot of miles on it, I'm not the least bit worried that the Castrol is going to be a problem for the motor. I'll find out, for good or bad, but I see no reason to be concerned. Todays oils, compared to the 'older' oils is way better, and after 50+ years of building virtually every brand of motor made, I have never had a problem with flat tappet cam wear in any of them (other than bad cams out of the box!), and many of them I have kept track of, because I live in an area where there aren't a lot of people and most everyone drives their vehicles 100's of thousands miles. Some have well over 200K on them and run just fine. And that's my 2 cents.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 6hk71400 View Post
                Corley,

                When you set a negative tone, don't be surprised with negative response.

                Bob Miles
                Some people's mind is made up so don't confuse them with the facts
                Bob,
                At 82 years of age, and doing mechanical work since my teens, owning and rebuilding Studebakers among other old cars most of those years, I tend to have my opinions about things. Forgive me for using the term "rag", that is simply a common slang term for a magazine that I have used for years, and is not meant to set a negative tone or demean the excellent Turning Wheels magazine in any way. I quite enjoy reading the articles in the Turning Wheels magazine, and especially the Cooperator section. Beyond using the term "rag", I don't believe I set a negative tone in enquiring about the content and methods of testing, and enquiring if someone could explain the method of testing. The article did not make it clear what the PSI readings meant, or how they were arrived at. Hey, I'm just trying to learn here! I apologize if I hit your hot button, I'll not be posting again for fear of further antagonizing you, I hope that is the result you were after with your response.

                All,
                Can anyone explain to me what the PSI readings mean, how the testing was done, and educate me enough to allow me to accept the findings as applicable to our old car hobby. I don't question that they represent something meaningful, but what? Additionally, can anyone comment on how a test of oil, done without allowing the chemicals to do their thing, IE form the protective phosphate layer which is what they are designed to do, how said test can really represent any real world results or have much value. If the phosphate layer has not been allowed to form, the ZDDP has not been allowed to do it's thing, then what are we really testing? I am seriously trying to understand this.

                I don't question that these test results are real, I just don't know what they mean. I'm not trying to be negative here, I simply want to understand what is purported to be fact, and I have a good reason to desire this information.

                Maybe I should explain, I am the technical advisor for our model A ford club, and am about to present a seminar on different types of oils, the history of ZDDP, and how these things affect our old cars. This testing interests me, because it might, if done properly, be very meaningful to us, and be worth mentioning in my presentation. Without a better explanation of what the actual testing did, how it was performed, etc., I can't really include it as factual information, even though I believe it probably is true.

                I might also mention that I have been avoiding posting this forum for the exact reason shown here. Someone always takes what I post as a negative or argumentative post, and I just don't need that in my life. With this, I'll once again stop posting, but I'll lurk a bit to see if anyone can help out this old man with this query. So far the posts have missed what I'm after.

                Corley

                Comment


                • #9
                  Corley RE; test method - As I recall the Corvette article I vaguely referenced above (post #6) did explain (in the first part of the article - It was presented as two articles, in two separate magazine issues) the process used in the testing and the results - Seems one of the 'Vette organization's member was an automotive engineer and he performed, wrote up and edited the test process and results. Unfortunately, there is no way I could possibly remember those details after several years.
                  Possibly someone reading this discussion may be able to locate an on-line version of it - If any exists. ( I am not the sharpest detective on the net, obviously).
                  paultk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm thinking that there would be an issue with zinc and phosphorus in diesel rated and racing oils fouling catalytic converters and O2 sensors if the engine is consuming an excessive amount of oil which is I think why the latest diesel rated oils are not rated for gasoline engines due to emission component warranties . If the engine is in good condition, I don't believe there would be an issue with using those oils. Since I don't know of any Studebaker ever being equipped with a cat, none of this is an issue. to most of us. All of the major oil companies have tech reps that can answer any questions about their lubricants if anyone has questions about a specific oil or other lubricant. Bud

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Corley View Post

                      <snip>
                      Can anyone explain to me what the PSI readings mean, how the testing was done, and educate me enough to allow me to accept the findings as applicable to our old car hobby. I don't question that they represent something meaningful, but what? Additionally, can anyone comment on how a test of oil, done without allowing the chemicals to do their thing, IE form the protective phosphate layer which is what they are designed to do, how said test can really represent any real world results or have much value. If the phosphate layer has not been allowed to form, the ZDDP has not been allowed to do it's thing, then what are we really testing? I am seriously trying to understand this.

                      I don't question that these test results are real, I just don't know what they mean. I'm not trying to be negative here, I simply want to understand what is purported to be fact, and I have a good reason to desire this information.

                      Maybe I should explain, I am the technical advisor for our model A ford club, and am about to present a seminar on different types of oils, the history of ZDDP, and how these things affect our old cars. This testing interests me, because it might, if done properly, be very meaningful to us, and be worth mentioning in my presentation. Without a better explanation of what the actual testing did, how it was performed, etc., I can't really include it as factual information, even though I believe it probably is true.
                      <snip>
                      Try reading this:





                      HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

                      Jeff


                      Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



                      Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [QUOTE=Corley;n1972069]

                        Bob,
                        Hey, I'm just trying to learn here! I apologize if I hit your hot button, I'll not be posting again for fear of further antagonizing you, I hope that is the result you were after with your response.

                        Corley,

                        I am here for the same reason. No need for an apology and no need to fear to antagonize me. I am a firm believer in the First Amendment and I served our country for that and the rights of everyone.

                        My response(s) to everyone that I talk to on the forum is not for an agenda nor taking sides. I will not post to deliberately cause one to not post. I am here to learn.

                        My interest in this topic is to help me make a decision on resurrecting a 1941 Studebaker Commander. It has 50,000 miles showing and in 1962 an oil sticker showed a change at 48,000 miles. I have not other history than that information. I want to bring this back by cleaning out the old ineffective with a good oil that will not damage the flat tappets and the babbit bearing rods.

                        I hope you find the answer you desire and will post that on this thread

                        Bob Miles
                        Happy New Year




                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Jeff,

                          Very Helpful, Thanks

                          Bob Miles
                          Now I have to get to work

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If you're resurrecting a 1941 Commander then I would recommend dropping the oil pan and at least cleaning it and the oil pump pick up screen as early in the engine's life it was run on non detergent oil as that is what was available in those days. Even if there was an oil change done in 1962, that was 60 years ago and oils from that time are nowhere as good as what we have now. Almost any of the modern oils will be far superior to what was available in the past and will do a good job in your engine. I would recommend an SAE 30 oil as that will in my opinion work well in your engine. Bud

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              My 41' Commander had much gunk in the pan and completely disintegrated soft Babbitt bearings after sitting for 30 years. Replaced with inserts. Water distribution tube was completely gone too.

                              Comment


                              • 6hk71400
                                6hk71400 commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Rather than distract from all the discussions on oil, I will start a new thread specific to my 41 Commander to get advice on protecting and bringing back my car to be able to drive it.
                            Working...
                            X