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1964 6 cyl, 3 sp. F4 transmission swap to 63 3 sp. overdrive

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  • Transmission / Overdrive: 1964 6 cyl, 3 sp. F4 transmission swap to 63 3 sp. overdrive

    It has been forever since I have been on the site or posted, but I am finally installing the OD 3 speed trans into the 64, 3 speed without it. I believe the transmission came out of 63, it is stamped E9 2 3 by the top cover (first photo).
    I had the transmission gone through and it was in good shape and now it has new seals and ready to go. Number on the tail shaft is R10F1GClick image for larger version  Name:	IMG_4206.JPG Views:	0 Size:	100.8 KB ID:	1904454 Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_4215.JPG Views:	0 Size:	100.6 KB ID:	1904455

    Installation was going good until I tried to install the speedometer drive gear into the tail shaft. The pinion gear checks out for the original 6 cyl. 3 sp., w/a 3.73 rear end, PN 1544762 with 20 teeth. It is hard to get the retaining housing which holds the gear to fully engage to the trans housing. I don't want to force it. I was turning the output shaft (trans in neutral ) back & forth attempting to get the gears to mesh as I push in, but it gets as far as the O-Ring seal and stops, also, the output shaft gets harder to turn at this point and almost will not turn when the speedo drive housing gets to the O-Ring groove.

    So the question: are the speedometer drive gears in the transmission the same or do I need a different gear for the drive cable? Looking at the master parts list, so far I can't find any reason this gear should not work.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_4234.JPG Views:	0 Size:	99.7 KB ID:	1904456

    Any tips are welcomed.

    Thanks in advance.

    David King
    sigpic

    David King

    1964 Studebaker Commander
    1958 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (615)
    1959 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (56)
    1960 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (83)
    1966 Pontiac GTO convertible

    SDC Member#: A011937K

  • #2
    David, good to see you posting again! Welcome back!!

    If the transmission stamping followed the same sequence as shown in the '55 thru '58 parts manual, it looks like that transmission was 'made' May 9, 1962 on 3rd shift. (E= month of May, 9 = day of month, 2= year of 1962, and 3= third shift) That seems to be confirmed by the casting date on the tailshaft housing that looks to be May of 1962. I suppose it's possible that a May '62 built trans could have been installed into an early 1963 car, but I'll let others comment on that. Or, it could be out of a 1962 six cylinder car.

    According to the parts book, the speedo cable/core would be the same for '62, '63 and '64 for an F-body 6 cylinder with standard or OD 3 speed, so doesn't seem like that would be causing a problem.

    In 1963 & 1964, there were four possible speedometer gears (the one inside the trans) that could have been used in an overdrive transmission depending on tire size and rear axle ratio:
    p/n 1550023 with 7 teeth
    p/n 1555140 with 8 teeth
    p/n 1547568 with 7 teeth
    p/n 1546543 with 5 teeth (used on cars with a 4.56:1 rear axle ratio

    (Just in case this is a '62 transmission, a '62 six cylinder with OD only used two different gears -- p/n 1547568 with 7 teeth or p/n 1546543 with 5 teeth.)

    The parts manual shows that p/n 1544762 pinion would be used with p/n 1547568 gear. I would suggest starting by looking at the gear in the transmission, thru the speedo cable hole, and count the number of teeth. To work with your pinion it should have 7 teeth. If it has something other than 7 teeth, it is not the correct gear to mesh with your pinion. If it does have 7 teeth but your pinion is not meshing with it, it could be a p/n 1550023 which is not listed to work with your pinion. (I wish I could tell you the difference between p/n 1550023 with 7 teeth, and p/n 1547568 with 7 teeth, but I can't. Maybe others on the forum know that info.)
    Last edited by r1lark; 07-24-2021, 02:20 PM. Reason: Added info regarding speedo cable/core
    Paul
    Winston-Salem, NC
    Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: www.studebakerskytop.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you r1lark for the quick reply.

      I was able to shine a light into the hole and count teeth...5 rows...rats! Looking at the master parts list for '62 transmissions, it seems I need a 1555104 pinion gear to get my speedo back to the 3.73, 14 teeth. 7/31/21 Note: I changed the part number as it was the DRIVE gear number, I bought one which I have no use for. I've ordered the 1555104 and will see if it works.

      Now it is a request to the membership for anyone that might have what is likely a very weird part. The O.D. in this ratio shows as not listed in the book, so it must have not been available to order when new.

      I will post a request for the the P/N and description in the parts wanted section.

      In the mean time, I think I will remove the speedo gear and put the housing back in the hole and run w/o speedometer until I can find the part. At least I can install the remaining pieces and sort out the electrical and get the car operational.

      Thank you r1lark again for the legwork.

      David

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2021-07-24 at 7.47.59 PM.png Views:	59 Size:	30.5 KB ID:	1904475
      Last edited by DKing; 07-31-2021, 11:40 AM.
      sigpic

      David King

      1964 Studebaker Commander
      1958 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (615)
      1959 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (56)
      1960 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (83)
      1966 Pontiac GTO convertible

      SDC Member#: A011937K

      Comment


      • #4
        I reached out the Facebook page and Cindy the admin. sent a note back recommending Studebaker International (I had already looked there) and Stephen Allen and I have found a listing for that part number as available, so tomorrow I will see if that works out. I broke the cowl drain hose extracting the accelerator pedal relay shaft to install the replacement with kick down switch, and S.A. also lists that.

        If anyone has photos showing wire routing and attachment points, I sure would welcome that. Service manual and master parts list is not very helpful there.

        An online wiring reference has a black wire from the kick down switch going to the distributor (must be points) but there is a wire from there going to the neg. coil point, so unless someone could explain why connecting to the neg coil wire lead is not recommended, I will attach there since that is much easier. The red feed wire is supposed to connect to red feed line in front of the fuse on the neutral safety switch circuit. Any chance that lead is there on the harness empty or do I need to run a wire and tap into it?

        7/25/21 Update, I found a unused Red wire on the harness above where the switch is located and it connects fine, so I think that was easier than normal. I connected the black wire to the distributor/coil neg. post. Harness routed to the solenoid and connected. There should be some harness attach points to keep the thing from just hanging there, can someone shoot some photos of a proper route and secure?

        The final step now is to route the bowden cable through the dash, on a 64, what is the correct opening? Routing and secure points are also needed with photos if possible.

        Thanks to everyone assisting.

        David
        Last edited by DKing; 07-26-2021, 07:12 AM.
        sigpic

        David King

        1964 Studebaker Commander
        1958 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (615)
        1959 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (56)
        1960 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (83)
        1966 Pontiac GTO convertible

        SDC Member#: A011937K

        Comment


        • #5
          Likely the final update 8/9/21:

          After buying the drive gear instead of the pinion gear, I called Stephen Allen and talked to Doug(?). I told him the P/N for the pinion and it is a special Taxi version made of metal, not fiber like the rest. He was reluctant and did not think it will work and I am thinking I've really got no choice since I have to remove the trans again and have it opened up to swap speedo drive gears. Another 50 bucks is worth it and the chart shows this pinion working with the drive gear. I buy and it shows up. I installed last week and tested, no speedo...how can that be if the chart shows that combination working. I stew on it for week and decide to remove and inspect to see what is different about the gear. What I found is the swaged square hole for the cable to go into is bigger than than the square hole for the pinion gear I removed from the original transmission. The speedo cable was spinning inside of the square hole so the it was not engaged.

          I had a similar problem on my 58 Eldorado Brougham several times where the gear had worn larger than the cable and I finally JB welded some very small shims on the cable so it would engage to the gear. The same principle was used here. The cable is buried inside the adaptor so you can't get at it, so I found some small wire and cut them longer than the adaptor to see if I could stick them in the adaptor and get the cable to engage. The spring retaining clip was stiff and hard to shove the unit in while trying to get an idea of whether it was engaging or not. I removed the retainer for this testing phase. Sure enough, I was able to get engagement with 2 sections of wire pushed into the opening and slide the adaptor onto the cable. Rotating the gear, I felt the same resistance as the original gear, engagement was made.

          I cut the wires so they would be sub-flush to the housing and reinstalled the retaining spring clip on the shaft and shoved into position.

          Yesterday I took the car to close, local car show and had a working speedometer, fantastic! Overdrive is working and that is huge improvement with this engine and rear end.

          I have a thread on my over charging issues and those are also solved, so for the next few hours, no known Studebaker issues exist on my car.

          Thanks to those who assisted with the issue.

          David

          Attached Files
          sigpic

          David King

          1964 Studebaker Commander
          1958 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (615)
          1959 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (56)
          1960 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (83)
          1966 Pontiac GTO convertible

          SDC Member#: A011937K

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DKing View Post
            The final step now is to route the bowden cable through the dash, on a 64, what is the correct opening? Routing and secure points are also needed with photos if possible.
            David
            David, I didn't see this question until this evening. I assume you routed the cable, but if you still need pics I can snap a few on my '64 Daytona.
            Paul
            Winston-Salem, NC
            Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: www.studebakerskytop.com

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't know if this applies, but on some of the older T96's used with the two-piece drive shaft, the speedo gear hole was on the opposite side of the case for an OD transmission vs a straight 3-speed. The fiber gear, therefore has to have a reverse pitch. I learned this at the cost of chewing one up.
              Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

              Comment


              • #8
                .... also on older, specifically 1959 2dr sedans & wagons...... the early trannies T96 (OD) had soft drive gears (inside) and would crumble in a few 1000 miles. You would then lose OD (governor & speedo). I believe it was a recall and the gears' issue fixed (I don't know how). I subsequently bought a NOS T96 OD tranny from SI. It was a pre-1959 and had the larger square fitment for the cable. I decided to drive without the pinion gear and lost the tranny descending a hill within 500 miles. Seems the tranny fluid will splash up the core, thru the pinion gear opening and drain the case. Drove home 200 miles with conventional 4.11 R/A....... I later bought a 63' Lark T96 OD and drove the 59' wagon for 8K miles without problems. A fitted block (170)was delivered via UPS for around $100. total from SI. Sold it to a joker who claimed it was for his personal collection ! Was later seen in the Pacific NW with big block, disc brakes, tinted glass and now (was an AZ car)..... quite rusted..... Hope "some" of this helps.....GL

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by r1lark View Post

                  David, I didn't see this question until this evening. I assume you routed the cable, but if you still need pics I can snap a few on my '64 Daytona.
                  r1lark,

                  I could use the photos to confirm my routing and attachment. There was a retaining bracket that came with the cable and I mounted it to the starter to bellhousing bolt and then attached the cable to the bracket. It seemed the right area for the attachment and cable bend.

                  What I don't have attached is the wire harness from the kickdown switch to the transmission. There is a flag wire retaining on the harness, but nothing is jumping out to me as to where is is supposed to attach.

                  This transmission/OD is likely a '62 with all the date codes on it and it is now in a '64.

                  Thanks for the offer.

                  David
                  sigpic

                  David King

                  1964 Studebaker Commander
                  1958 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (615)
                  1959 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (56)
                  1960 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham (83)
                  1966 Pontiac GTO convertible

                  SDC Member#: A011937K

                  Comment

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