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Front End Bushing Kit - 62 Hawk?

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  • alpayed
    replied
    You are absolutely correct Allan. The crumbled bushings I showed in the pic were not removed from a Studebaker but were on a smooth shaft with room to rotate, but did have some time on them. I was actually surprised to find them in as bad a condition as they were. They were spring shackel bushings.Hi Bensherb. The rear shackles take a pounding. Part of the problem is the pin diameter. My 60 Hawk has Ford ranger rear leafs in it and the shackles are huge by comparison.
    Not much can be easily done with the ones in the chassis.
    Allan

    Leave a comment:


  • bensherb
    replied
    Originally posted by alpayed View Post
    Hi guys.
    I have stated this before. Delrin is a lube free bearing material for rotating shafts. I would not use it in high impact situations. If you put it in a vise and hit it it fractures into bits.
    It is hard and has little compliance.
    The pic above is not typical of polyurethane installed properly. They probably used the Stude inner sleeve which is split length ways and not smooth enough. That would chew the crap out of the bush. The installation also requires the inner sleeve to rotate. The bush length is critical, if not right it will also destroy the bush.
    There are varying duro (hardness) formulas usually colour coded. I have been using these bushings in my cars for nearly 40 Years. I used them in my 1984 Nissan Patrol and belted the crap out of the suspension driving around Australia with no problems. Almost all 4x4"s here use them and they get pounded on our gravel roads.
    They have been in both my Studes for years.
    The ones Joe has were supplied with new SS inners (polish finish) and a graphite lube which is essential.
    Do it properly and it won't be a problem.

    Allan
    You are absolutely correct Allan. The crumbled bushings I showed in the pic were not removed from a Studebaker but were on a smooth shaft with room to rotate, but did have some time on them. I was actually surprised to find them in as bad a condition as they were. They were spring shackel bushings. This was not the first time I've encountered urethane bushings in this kind of condition. I replaced them with Delrin bushings which will most certainly outlive the car's owner. From my experience, the urethane bushings sold commercially here will last five to maybe ten years whether the vehicle is driven or not. They tend to dry out, harden and then wear quite quickly. Yes, a polished or smooth inner shaft and proper lubrication is essential for good performance of either a urethane or Delrin bushing.

    Personally, I value a solid suspension over the very minor, if even perceptable, difference a rubber or urethane bushing might provide over a Delrin one, (but I wouldn't run aluminum bushings on the street). The main reason I replaced the good condition stock rear bushings on my Hawk was due to their poor design which allowed too much lateral rear axle movement. At some point, before I got the car, the shackels had been allowed to become a tiny bit loose and had rolled the ends of the bushing's inner tube, which in turn kept the shackels from being able to be properly tightened allowing far too much lateral movement. The thin ends of the stock type rear bushings inner tube, along with the thin shackel plates (I made new ones twice as thick) ; do not offer enough purchase to resist the lateral forces applied to them under anything but extremely light cornering, and consequentially will allow increasingly more lateral movement as time goes on. I've not noticed ANY difference in ride quality between the Delrin and stock bushings. And, it gets smoother the faster you go; that may be due to our crappy roads, or maybe not, I don't know. My GT rides very nice ,at 110 kph or more it rides smooth as glass, even on our crappy roads.
    Last edited by bensherb; 07-27-2021, 12:06 AM.

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  • Champ51
    replied
    Never having rebuilt a Studebaker suspension, this thread begs the following questions:

    Do 1953 and later cars with their rubber bushings ride substantially better than the '51-52 cars, or was the change in bushings done for ease of manufacturing / maintenance?
    Do the later cars have a quieter ride than the early cars?

    Leave a comment:


  • 64studeavanti
    replied
    The original suspension was designed so that the inner bushings were clamped tight against the pivot arms. There was no intention of the pivots turning freely in the bushing.The rubber (neoprene?) in the bushings flexed as the a arms traveled up and down. This is why the retaining bolts should not be fully tightened unless the full weight of the car is on the ground. The ride was somewhat softened as well. Earlier Studes (and R3 Avantis) used steel inner bushings similar to the outer ones. These were designed to pivot.

    As has been stated, if you use a bushing that was designed to rotate, be sure that the length is correct so it will turn. You would also need very smooth shafts for the bushing to rotate without being chewed up.

    FWIW, I have a set of delrin bushings that I don't plan on using. I also have the front suspension from a 51 Commander with the steel inner bushing set up.

    If any one is interested in either, send me a pm.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kato
    replied
    Well now, I never would have guessed that A-Arm bushings would be so "controversial" This has all been very interesting!

    Leave a comment:


  • Kato
    replied
    Originally posted by alpayed View Post
    Hi guys.
    I have stated this before. Delrin is a lube free bearing material for rotating shafts. I would not use it in high impact situations. If you put it in a vise and hit it it fractures into bits.
    It is hard and has little compliance.
    The pic above is not typical of polyurethane installed properly. They probably used the Stude inner sleeve which is split length ways and not smooth enough. That would chew the crap out of the bush. The installation also requires the inner sleeve to rotate. The bush length is critical, if not right it will also destroy the bush.
    There are varying duro (hardness) formulas usually colour coded. I have been using these bushings in my cars for nearly 40 Years. I used them in my 1984 Nissan Patrol and belted the crap out of the suspension driving around Australia with no problems. Almost all 4x4"s here use them and they get pounded on our gravel roads.
    They have been in both my Studes for years.
    The ones Joe has were supplied with new SS inners (polish finish) and a graphite lube which is essential.
    Do it properly and it won't be a problem.

    Allan
    Hi Allan, I don't suppose you would be willing to make up a set for my 62GT would you? We have friends in Melbourne coming to the International Meet next year who I am sure would be willing to bring them.

    Leave a comment:


  • alpayed
    replied
    Hi guys.
    I have stated this before. Delrin is a lube free bearing material for rotating shafts. I would not use it in high impact situations. If you put it in a vise and hit it it fractures into bits.
    It is hard and has little compliance.
    The pic above is not typical of polyurethane installed properly. They probably used the Stude inner sleeve which is split length ways and not smooth enough. That would chew the crap out of the bush. The installation also requires the inner sleeve to rotate. The bush length is critical, if not right it will also destroy the bush.
    There are varying duro (hardness) formulas usually colour coded. I have been using these bushings in my cars for nearly 40 Years. I used them in my 1984 Nissan Patrol and belted the crap out of the suspension driving around Australia with no problems. Almost all 4x4"s here use them and they get pounded on our gravel roads.
    They have been in both my Studes for years.
    The ones Joe has were supplied with new SS inners (polish finish) and a graphite lube which is essential.
    Do it properly and it won't be a problem.

    Allan

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeHall
    replied
    Bensherb, thanks for the info and pic, as a picture is worth 1000 words. I honestly don't know what the ones Allan made for me are, maybe urethane but maybe polypropylene. He had tried them himself, then made a few sets for friends in Australia. I am probably the first person in USA to have a set. I am looking forward to installing them, and not expecting lifetime service out of much anything nowadays. If they hold us as well as the repo rubber ones do I'll be happy. I get around 50,000 miles out of upper repros, and 100,000 out of the lowers, so no complaints. But am also slowing down on driving the Studes, as motorcycle riding has picked up drastically since I retired 3 years ago. Have ridden motorcycles around 100,000 miles since retired, but probably less than 10,000 on the Studes. Motorcycle riding is helping keep me fit, in more exposure to the elements, and keeps the senses sharp. But I also love sitting behind the wheel of Studes, and will hopefully get back to them as I once was. For now, planning a motorcycle ride to the Colorado Rockies in September.

    As for what to expect from the ones Allan made for me, pretty sure if he's happy with them I will be too, as long as they don't squeak. Come to think of it, I believe he said they need to be lubed once in awhile.

    If I ever replace another rear spring bushing, will definitely use Delrin, especially the bushing in the frame. It is 10 times harder than the spring bushings to replace; no problem installing the new one, but it's a PITA to get the old bushing's outer shell out of the frame. I like the idea of Delrins there for several reasons: less side swing/shift of the springs, and easier to replace if ever needed.

    Thanks again, for the info!

    Leave a comment:


  • bensherb
    replied
    I'm one of those guys who likes Delrin bushings. I replaced all the rear suspension bushings on my
    GT with Delrin ones years ago. I had the material to make the bushings for the front suspension, but don't need to replace those yet. But, I just used it to make bushings to replace these urethane ones on a customers car I had to repair . This is what's left of eight urethane bushings. Two of them were worn through, but all were so dry and brittle they just crumbled. I'm not a big fan of urethane.
    Click image for larger version  Name:	crumbled urethane bussings  from connies car.JPG Views:	0 Size:	136.7 KB ID:	1904284

    I do have them on some of my cars, because they're available, cheap and usually last longer than repop rubber does. But, I do keep an eye on them and keep them lubed with silicon lube. Polypropylene would certainly work, but I'm not sure how well would last. It's not self lubricating, and doesn't take heat well like Delrin. It is softer though. It will also squish and "flow" over time so may not last super long but maybe longer than repop rubber, I don't know. In my experience, repop rubber stuff cracks up and falls apart fairly quickly. I can only guess the compound they use is no where as good as what the factories used. Of course, I don't think they expect the vehicles to be on the road 20+ years after installing their parts. All but two my cars have been going for at least 45 years and those two are 21 years old (both of them have a couple urethane bits on them) .
    Last edited by bensherb; 07-22-2021, 08:33 PM.

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  • Kato
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeHall View Post
    Hi Kato, Not many of the NOS still around, but they do pop up here and there. About 10 years ago I snatched a set, for cheap, and installed them. Then, within a year later was cursing myself when replacing them. Most of our vendors now have new repro, which is great. Still, it's a good idea to inspect them upon arrival. They should be soft and pliable, and thumbnail should easily press into the surface. A hard surface and/or ANY visible cracks are red flag. I have looked extensively into interchange with brand x cars, and have found none that would install without some sort of modification.
    Some folks prefer Delrin material, and have had good experiences. I have never tried them, but say they are too hard on the suspension. As a middle ground approach, I have a set of polypropylene(?) ones I got from Allan Tyler, our SDC friend and forum member here, who lives in Australia. I've had them about 2 years now, in the round2it bin for the 62GT. I am gonna get to them, but not sure when. Will be sure to comment on the results here, but I have grown to have complete confidence in anything Allan says. So if he says they are good to go, I believe it and that settles it. I just need to get round to installing them.
    Great info. I was told to try and get the urethane bushings, not sure if that is similar to polypropylene? As you suggested earlier, first I'll see if they really are in need of replacement soon or if I can do that work in another couple of years. Gives me time to gather up the parts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kato
    replied
    Originally posted by Captain Billy View Post
    Kato....check with Russ at Canadian Studebaker in Campbellford...the man knows Studebakers
    http://canadianstudebaker.com/
    His inventory is not all on line
    I'm probably going to see Russ at the Timbers BBQ in a couple of weeks if he's going again this year so I will definitely talk to him about that. You are right, one needs to ask him about his stock, it's not all online. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeHall
    replied
    Hi Kato, Not many of the NOS still around, but they do pop up here and there. About 10 years ago I snatched a set, for cheap, and installed them. Then, within a year later was cursing myself when replacing them. Most of our vendors now have new repro, which is great. Still, it's a good idea to inspect them upon arrival. They should be soft and pliable, and thumbnail should easily press into the surface. A hard surface and/or ANY visible cracks are red flag. I have looked extensively into interchange with brand x cars, and have found none that would install without some sort of modification.
    Some folks prefer Delrin material, and have had good experiences. I have never tried them, but say they are too hard on the suspension. As a middle ground approach, I have a set of polypropylene(?) ones I got from Allan Tyler, our SDC friend and forum member here, who lives in Australia. I've had them about 2 years now, in the round2it bin for the 62GT. I am gonna get to them, but not sure when. Will be sure to comment on the results here, but I have grown to have complete confidence in anything Allan says. So if he says they are good to go, I believe it and that settles it. I just need to get round to installing them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Billy
    replied
    Kato....check with Russ at Canadian Studebaker in Campbellford...the man knows Studebakers
    http://canadianstudebaker.com/
    His inventory is not all on line

    Leave a comment:


  • Kato
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeHall View Post
    My experience, after those rubber bushings 'begin to crack' you still have about 50,000 miles, or five years left. Many begin to crack within 1-2 years after install. However, avoid NOS with those bushings, as they tend to crack and completely disintegrate within a year or two. The cracks begin quickly, and it's all downhill from there. I would not install NOS again if they were given to me.
    So, if you could have your mech show you exactly what he's looking at next time, you could make your own judgement. Also, when they are starting to go, they begin to shift off center, and you can see it by looking at the cap screws' centeredness, or lack of. If off center, yep, time to start thinking about replacement. Also, always check all cap screws for looseness, anytime you have ready access, i.e. on a lift, or up on jack stands. The cap screws are notorious for coming loose.
    OK thanks Joe, great advice. I don't get many opportunities to get it up on a hoist but next time I do I will do exactly as you say and have a look myself. This fellow is a real "stickler" for detail but even he admitted I should ask around about these bushings. It's going in for a little transmission adjustment next month so hopefully I can take a look then and check those cap screws.

    Are these bushings common to a lot of makes or specific to Studes? Studebaker International lists them but are they the NOS ones you would stay away from? Is there a better source for them?

    Really appreciate the advice!

    Leave a comment:


  • Kato
    replied
    Originally posted by RadioRoy View Post
    There are just the eight. I tried urethane bushings back in the 80's, but the machine shop said they would not fit.
    Interesting, OK thanks.

    Leave a comment:

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