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Borg warner overdrive help

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  • gordr
    replied
    The numbers usually are stamped, but kind of faintly.

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  • NCDave51
    replied
    The later the solenoid, the more the wires, so you have difficulty using a two-wire solenoid without a relay.

    IIRC, it was around 1956 or so when the relay was omitted and the terminals went from 2 to 3. Governor is the same.

    What would’ve been helpful is when Borg Warner wanted to describe the solenoid terminals #4, 6 and 8, maybe someone should’ve embossed these numbers alongside their location?

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  • Zeus
    replied
    Between and among work, hail storms, and downpours, I have managed to look at the solenoid (and its paperwork) and the old solenoid it replaced--and little more. The solenoid, relay, and kick-down switch are all new. Notably, the solenoid is for a '63, but it's a two-wire (by which I mean it has two terminals on the side). Maybe that's somehow normal, but the old one had three terminals on its side. The new relay replaced the old relay, so what was in there was a 3-terminal solenoid with a relay. Clearly there's investigating to do and I'll have to figure what is supposed to work.

    It's evident an attempt was made to wire something to one of the screws on the end of the solenoid. It's also pretty obvious that turned out poorly: burn mark and the wire is cut off. The first mekanik probably did that and the second tried to remedy it. Frustrating to pay to have things done wrong, sometimes more than once. I am familiar with '60s Fords and do that work, or adapt to it, but this is a new learning curve.

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  • RadioRoy
    replied
    Originally posted by NCDave51 View Post

    I am lost to whom I am answering.

    Grammar cop. Over and out.
    Technical talk cop. "Over and out" is contradictory. Here's what I know about it.

    "Over" means I have ended my transmission and await your reply.
    "Out" means I have ended my transmission and expect no reply.

    So... "over and out" is contradictory and not acceptable two way radio talk. It has been misused in movies and on television so many times, that it has become accepted, but it is not accurate.

    So... how's that for going waaaay off topic?
    Last edited by RadioRoy; 05-15-2021, 09:04 AM.

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  • Zeus
    replied
    Thanks! This is good and clear guidance for me to follow. I have pulled apart the governor before, and it seemed fine and later (even after I dismantled it) worked. My mechanic last week tested the solenoid in the transmission (wouldn't activate) and out. It drew lots of amps (system without solenoid did not) and heated up. I will use the these directions and the 5th avenue book to do the testing, too, to see what I find. Perhaps not today, however, since 75° + sun has become 60° + storms, and I am just not hyped on that. This helps a lot, so thanks again.

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  • gordr
    replied
    Originally posted by Zeus View Post
    Looks like the reclassification of the topic should allow us to continue discussion without offending. I got my '63 Lark back from the shop; it retains the B-W OD. There is a confirmed internal short in the (essentially new) OD solenoid; the wiring (new harness in there, too, along with a new relay) checks out without shorts or high draw. I'll still chase wires with my 5th Avenue book, but if anyone here has an idea about, or experience with, a solenoid that *does* work and then *stops* working (due to that internal short, presumably; the fuse blew), it would be great to hear if they tracked down a cause. For instance, can the OD work but be wired incorrectly so that the result is a short? Are there, in fact, known, frequent causes of internal shorting of the B-W OD solenoid? That information could help me target issues, so thanks if anyone has knowledge there.
    How do you know the solenoid is shorted? There should be three terminals on that solenoid. They should have faintly stamped numbers. #4 goes to the governor, and internally, in the solenoid, it is the "low" side of both the pull-in and the hold-in coils. #6 is the grounding contact for the kickdown function. It should be open-circuit with the solenoid unenergized, and go to ground when the solenoid is energized. #8 is the "extra" terminal on the three-terminal solenoid; it is the one that gets fed power from the fuse, by way of the two normally-closed contacts in the kickdown switch. Internally in the solenoid, #8 is permanently connected to the "hot" side of the hold-in coil, and is connected to the "hot" side of the high-current pull-in coil through a momentary-contact switch that opens when the solenoid plunger is fully extended. Now if you measure the resistance of the solenoid between terminals 4 and 8, it is going to read almost zero ohms. The pull-in coil that does the actual work of moving the plunger is wound with relatively few turns of heavy wire, and pulls a lot of juice during its brief period of operation. If something should prevent the solenoid plunger from moving its full travel, the pull-in coil will stay engaged for much longer than it should, and that will eventually blow the fuse, thereby protecting the solenoid from being burned out. One thing that might cause that is incorrectly installing the solenoid, such that the plunger is just pushing against the end of the pawl, and not engaged with it.

    As far as I know, the '63 models all used the 3-terminal solenoid, and had no relay. The prior design, '61 and back, used a two terminal solenoid, and had the relay. With the 2-terminal solenoid, #6 is the same as described above, there is no #8, and #4 goes to the "hot" side of each coil, with a momentary-contact switch in the feed to the pull-in coil. The "low" side of each coil is grounded internally in the solenoid.

    Overdrive solenoids are pretty robust. They don't often fail on their own, but they can be damaged by miswiring, or improper installation. Don't let your multimeter be you sole judge of "shorted". Most multimeters, even digital ones, are ill-suited to measuring very low values of resistance. Better to bench-test the solenoid with a good battery. Clamp one of the "ear" of the solenoid in a vise. On a 2-terminal solenoid, hook the positive wire from the battery to #4, and the negative to ground. The plunger should shoot out with a loud click. With the plunger extended, #6 should read zero ohms to ground if tested with your multimeter, and with the plunger retracted, it should read infinity. On a 3-terminal solenoid, apply the positive wire to #8, and the negative to #4, and the plunger should move promptly. And #6 will test out with the multimeter in same way as described above.

    I say to clamp it in a vise, because the plunger moves so quickly and forcefully that the solenoid can jump right out of your hand and startle you if you aren't expecting that.

    Hope this helps.

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  • StudeRich
    replied
    Zeus: (Joe), have you checked the Governor Out?
    Oil leaks into those past the 2 Seals that MAY or may not be there or good, and gets the Points Isolated or Shorted sometimes.

    You know, most Parts on Older Cars can be Cleaned, Repaired or Rebuilt, they do not HAVE to be replaced.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zeus
    replied
    Looks like the reclassification of the topic should allow us to continue discussion without offending. I got my '63 Lark back from the shop; it retains the B-W OD. There is a confirmed internal short in the (essentially new) OD solenoid; the wiring (new harness in there, too, along with a new relay) checks out without shorts or high draw. I'll still chase wires with my 5th Avenue book, but if anyone here has an idea about, or experience with, a solenoid that *does* work and then *stops* working (due to that internal short, presumably; the fuse blew), it would be great to hear if they tracked down a cause. For instance, can the OD work but be wired incorrectly so that the result is a short? Are there, in fact, known, frequent causes of internal shorting of the B-W OD solenoid? That information could help me target issues, so thanks if anyone has knowledge there.

    Leave a comment:


  • NCDave51
    replied
    Originally posted by Corbinstein0 View Post
    What a Cluster$%&#$.

    Someone should start a sticky on how the BW OD works, and add diagrams, troubleshooting, etc.
    Agreed. My thumbs are sore from typing out on this phone the intricacies of that brilliant design. It seems to be a monthly topic!

    Leave a comment:


  • Corbinstein0
    replied
    What a Cluster$%&#$.

    Someone should start a sticky on how the BW OD works, and add diagrams, troubleshooting, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • NCDave51
    replied
    Originally posted by StudeRich View Post

    I am Lost as to WHO I am answering. .
    I am lost to whom I am answering.

    Grammar cop. Over and out.

    Leave a comment:


  • StudeRich
    replied
    Originally posted by Rafe Hollister View Post
    My OD has been modified from original, I do not understand how or why, but this is how mine works. I flip an electrical toggle switch, then push in lever (looks like emergency brake) while under power, then let off gas. If I let off gas 1st, it doesn't seem to work.
    Once mine is is OD, it stays there, so I can use all three gears, stop, etc... all while in OD. But it will not go in reverse. To get out of OD, I come to complete stop, with motor idling, flip toggle and pull out lever. I forget if it has to be in neutral or not.
    In YOUR CASE, you will also want to check how it has been wired.
    When they function that way, I believe it means the Governor has been Bi-Passed, that is why it will not go into Reverse in Overdrive.

    That would also be why it has NO Direct Gears in Overdrive, you SHOULD be using at least 4 of the 6 Ratios available.

    Different situation than jwboff (James) and Zeus (Joe).

    Too many Posters on the same Post, people need to create their own post, it gets TOO confusing due to different Cars, different problems on the same subject.
    I am Lost as to WHO I am answering. .
    Last edited by StudeRich; 05-11-2021, 02:59 PM.

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  • NCDave51
    replied
    (On topic but off-titled?)

    As soon as we saw “Borg-Warner” we knew this new Member was going to be talking transmission of some sort.

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  • gordr
    replied
    This entire thread is off-topic. Overdrive is not "engine". There is an excellent book on the subject, and it has been mentioned here many times before. Get it, and read it. The main reason for overdrive not working is that somebody ****ed with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zeus
    replied
    OK, thanks for the direction on this'63. Once it's back from the shop I'll go through the wiring, starting with seeing if the solenoid will activate in the first place (that's one I'm familiar with at this point). When I get the OD running, it's for sale. I'll take a bath on it at this point, but as Nick Lowe sang, and so it goes.

    Leave a comment:

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