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  • misleading Turning Wheels Column on Oil

    In the December 2008, "Cooperator" column, provides an overview of current thought on the need for ZDDP levels higher than what is commonly available on store shelfs. I have no issue with that as it follows the thesis of my 2007 paper on the same topic (with SAE and other peer review citations so you can verify EVERYTHING I claim). (see http://systems-engineering-associates.com/avocation )

    However, the author accepts the claims of additive and "custom" oil hawkers that 1) their product meets the needs and 2) are justified in their price. These claims are not supportable by available data.
    First, it is unlikely that the additives are needed, if you get the oils from my original article, and in fact it is likely that you will add too much. go to the URL able and click on my additive article.
    Second, since 2007, the number of available oils that meet our engine's needs have gone from "a few" to "some" to "many". again click on the URL above for the list, based on lab tests.
    Third, I recommend NONE of the products in the column for the simple reason that while all the vendors are enthusiasts, are very nice and personable, none are willing to give out basic formulation information. Even Exxon provides this! Without this information, NO oil or additive will make my recommended list.

    Your money, Your Car, Your choice.


    Terry, North Texas
    1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
    (in stage 1 resto "Project A")
    http://sterkel.org/avanti
    1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
    1999 Toyota rice burner
    1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

    New resolution.
    I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
    challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
    I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

  • #2
    Terry, I really appreciate all of your efforts to get to the root of this issue. [^]

    I am still confused about some things about it however.

    (1) Do you have some lab testing docs that show the needed ZDDP level of 12%, 1200 PPM is NOT present in 20W-50 Automotive Oils that have either been improved or never changed and are SUPPOSED to work in our flat tappet engines?

    (2) According to Castrol, they recommend their Syntec full synthetic 20W-50 oil and others say ANY 20W-50 is fine, but your update paper shows NOTHING BUT Diesel oils, for both Dino and Synthetic Oils! Why do only Diesel oils meet your criteria?

    (3) Don't they have other characteristics better suited for "dirty" running diesels, than cleaner burning gasoline engines? Therefore using Diesel oils, we would be missing other Gas Engine needed additives.

    I do understand that in the beginning, when they first pulled the ZDDP levels down in Automotive oils that the original Shell Rotella T 15W-40 CI-4 before it's level of ZDDP was lowered (CI-4 Plus/CJ) WAS a very good stop gap Oil (ditto, Chevron Delo) until something was done to improve Automotive Oils, but that was Nov. 2006 and this is NOW! [:0]

    Please understand that I am NOT trying to start another war like so many posts in the past ended up as, I just don't see why reasonably priced Quality Brands of Improved 20W-50 Automotive Dino Oils still according to you, do not meet the requirement for older cars.
    Isn't there a way to gain access to the Oil Co. test results of these "Improved Oils" or at least the ZDDP level numbers?

    StudeRich at Studebakers Northwest -Ferndale,WA
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner

    Comment


    • #3
      quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

      Terry, I really appreciate all of your efforts to get to the root of this issue. [^]

      I am still confused about some things about it however. ...

      StudeRich at Studebakers Northwest -Ferndale,WA
      All good questions.
      1. for the SAE papers, please read my paper, and then check the footnotes.
      2. for non-Diesel oils, to my surprise, the following have met the "criteria" that I set in the 2007 based on SAE and other peer reviewed papers.
      Good: Redline SM? 5w-40, Schaeffers 9000 5w/40 synthetic, Lubrication Engineers 10W-30 CJ-4/SM HDEO,
      Your wallet, Your car, Your choice



      Terry, North Texas
      1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
      (in stage 1 resto "Project A")
      http://sterkel.org/avanti
      1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
      1999 Toyota rice burner
      1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

      New resolution.
      I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
      challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
      I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

      Comment


      • #4
        quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

        Terry,
        Did you share your information with the TW editors?
        Jeff[8D]

        Offered to TW in 2006 as a table of the key info, and in early 2007 as the paper you see at http://systems-engineering-associates.com/avocation

        Your money, Your Car, Your choice.


        Terry, North Texas
        1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
        (in stage 1 resto "Project A")
        http://sterkel.org/avanti
        1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
        1999 Toyota rice burner
        1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

        New resolution.
        I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
        challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
        I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...
        [/quote]


        Terry, North Texas
        1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
        (in stage 1 resto "Project A")
        http://sterkel.org/avanti
        1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
        1999 Toyota rice burner
        1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

        New resolution.
        I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
        challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
        I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

        Comment


        • #5
          I did respond, I highlighted my earlier reply to make it easier to find, sorry. [quote]quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

          I did read your resoulution.
          I also read your papers, and your responses earlier.
          All have merit.
          But you choose to respond on this forum to imformation published in TW that you disagree with, but have not provided this information to TW...
          (as far as I know... I just asked but did not receive a reply to my simple one line non technical question)..
          Perhaps TW would use your information to make better publishing decisions.
          It seems it is a one way street on your block.
          Good thing there isn't much traffic, huh?
          You may not care to respond to me, or my question, but it still is a pertinent question.
          And it is a subject that could use your expertise, should you choose to share it.
          Jeff[8D]



          quote:Originally posted by 63Avanti

          Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

          Terry,
          Did you share your information with the TW editors?
          Jeff[8D]

          Offered to TW in 2006 as a table of the key info, and in early 2007 as the paper you see at http://systems-engineering-associates.com/avocation]

          Your money, Your Car, Your choice.

          As for "publishing decisions", I do not see myself as having a dog in that fight. I offer what I have, and leave it up to those who continually fight the good fight with schedules, budgets, and content to decide what is or is not publishable. If I wanted to "publish" beyond the sporadic paper and (hopefully amusing) blog, I would be selling tickets...err...subscriptions. Besides, 2008 was a good year, I got 4 articles published.


          Terry, North Texas
          1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
          (in stage 1 resto "Project A")
          http://sterkel.org/avanti
          1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
          1999 Toyota rice burner
          1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

          New resolution.
          I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
          challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
          I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

          Comment


          • #6
            quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

            Terry, I really appreciate all of your efforts to get to the root of this issue. [^]....

            StudeRich at Studebakers Northwest -Ferndale,WA
            I see that I stopped before I responded fully, sorry.

            About 20w-50 and other oils.
            I do not "filter" results by viscosity. ALL oils that meet the 2007 paper criteria, regardless of viscosity, are listed. I simply have not found any 20w-50 in that range. All the proper caveats about winter and viscosity always apply.

            About racing oils.
            The tests I have seen put them in the "good Zinc" range. However, they are notably short on common detergent and other "good stuff" found in even the Walmart brand. Therefore, other than placing them in the footnote, I leave them out.

            About "automotive" additives.
            Excellent question! and one I am still not certain about. If you dig deeper, remember the acronyms "PCMO" for automotive oils, and "HDEO" for diesel oils. PCMO oils have the SM or earlier rating and HDEO oils have the CJ-4 or earlier rating. What I am saying next is tricky, and possibly wrong, so stay with me. I have studied over 100 PCMO oil tests and about 40 HDEO oil tests. I find a wide variance in additive packs between the PCMO oils. I find less variance between the HDEO oils. Between the HDEO and PCMO, of the same "generation" I mostly note that the HDEO have more "Zinc", and an extra "slug" of detergents. What I have not found is HDEO missing any additive that is consistently in the PCMO. My (somewhat shaky) conclusion is that HDEO is fine for automobiles. (better replace that filter more frequently or the detergency will "get you.")

            Just for fun, Molybdenum.
            The joker in this discussion is Moly. There is "old" Moly and "new" Moly. Both are used in PCMO, and you cannot tell which from the standard elemental test. The reason that it is interesting is that the "new" Moly has significant friction/scoring protection capabilities and thus is sometimes used to replace "Zinc" that has been removed. The obvious, and totally unsupported, leap of faith is that there is an amount (PPM) of "new" Moly that will replace our beloved "Zinc" in our geriatric engines. I am hoping to find a credible expert source that I can read and question. If I can wrap my mind around this and get some data...Another Paper!!!

            remember, your wallet, your car, your choice





            Terry, North Texas
            1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
            (in stage 1 resto "Project A")
            http://sterkel.org/avanti
            1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
            1999 Toyota rice burner
            1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

            New resolution.
            I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
            challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
            I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

            Comment


            • #7
              Well Terry I think that the viscosity IS or COULD be important, if what Castrol says is true! They are saying that since 20W-50 is too thick for post 1984 cat equipped, overhead cam close tolerance (Japanese/German made) engines (that's ALL new cars) that they can avoid the EPA requirement and it can be, and is loaded with ZDDP and used in Tractors, Lawn Mowers, ATV's, Ski Mobiles, and off-road vehicles. OH, and Classic Cars! [^]

              So I do not know, but it appears to me that you are ready for Oil Paper revision number two, if you can get any conclusive specs on the not your everyday 5W-30 new car oil! The 20W-50 supposedly OLD Car Oil that nobody has the guts to put on their LABEL!! This info is on the Castrol website. [:0]


              StudeRich at Studebakers Northwest -Ferndale,WA
              StudeRich
              Second Generation Stude Driver,
              Proud '54 Starliner Owner

              Comment


              • #8
                I am always "up" for a paper refresh, or even better, a new paper. However, non-huckstering data is tough to come by.
                quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

                Well Terry I think that the viscosity IS or COULD be important, if what Castrol says is true! They are saying that since 20W-50 is too thick for post 1984 cat equipped, overhead cam close tolerance (Japanese/German made) engines (that's ALL new cars) that they can avoid the EPA requirement and it can be, and is loaded with ZDDP and used in Tractors, Lawn Mowers, ATV's, Ski Mobiles, and off-road vehicles. OH, and Classic Cars! [^]

                So I do not know, but it appears to me that you are ready for Oil Paper revision number two, if you can get any conclusive specs on the not your everyday 5W-30 new car oil! The 20W-50 supposedly OLD Car Oil that nobody has the guts to put on their LABEL!! This info is on the Castrol website. [:0]


                StudeRich at Studebakers Northwest -Ferndale,WA

                Terry, North Texas
                1963 Avanti R2, 63SR1065
                (in stage 1 resto "Project A")
                http://sterkel.org/avanti
                1985 Kubota L2202(Diesel)
                1999 Toyota rice burner
                1986 Ford 150 Long Bed

                New resolution.
                I will continue to respond, to the best of my ability, to any query,
                challenge or alternative view relevant to my original post.
                I will not respond to anything off (the original) topic...

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've used 20W50 in a couple post '84 cars with cats. I never had a problem. In a high stress, hi temp racing environment, Mobil 1 has worked like a charm. This was in a Suzuki Swift GTi with twin cams and a 7500 RPM redline. When the engines were disassembled, the insides looked like new.

                  While my Studes won't see 7500 RPM's (I hope), living in an area where the ambient temps are 70+ degrees, cold starting (and cold viscosity) isn't an issue. Most vintage cars in the north are not driven during the winter months, so this wouldn't be a probllem either. While there are differences in the detergent packages, less detergents only bring this back to the '50's and '60's when detergents were fewer.

                  Brad Penn Racing Oil also comes in multi-viscosity oils such as 10W30 for those who plan on starting their cars in the winter. This company also sells an SAE 30 weight 'Break-In' oil. These all have elevated levels of ZDDP.

                  I've mentioned this before. Everyone has their own idea of what works for them. I have had great success with Mobil 1 products and will continue to use them.

                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Tom - Mulberry, FL

                  1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

                  Tom - Bradenton, FL

                  1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
                  1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    O.K., I'm the non-tech guy here when it come to oils! All I need to know is what can I buy at my local NAPA that will do the job in my 50 Champion. I drive the car less than 2000 miles a year so maybe it's not even an issue.


                    Dick
                    Mountain Home, AR
                    http://www.livingintheozarks.com/studebaker.htm

                    Dick
                    Mountain Home, AR
                    http://www.livingintheozarks.com/studebaker2.htm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Dick,
                      I think you are grossly oversimplifying this. What fun is it if you don't spend more hours researching and debating the merits of motor oils than you do actually driving your car? [:0]

                      55 Commander
                      58 Transtar
                      62 GT Hawk
                      66 Cruiser

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My company runs Valvoline products for testing in our trucks. While one of the engineers was here I asked him about the ZDDP issue. He said that although the levels have been reduced in their products he did not think there would be a problem using the newer oils. Not the positive answer I wanted, but somewhat better than nothing. I intend to ask his boss next as he has old cars.


                        1952 Champion Starlight, 1962 Daytona, both w/overdrive.Searcy,Arkansas
                        "I may be lazy, but I'm not shiftless."
                        "In the heart of Arkansas."
                        Searcy, Arkansas
                        1952 Commander 2 door. Really fine 259.
                        1952 2R pickup

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Not that I am promoting this product, or any other motor oil or additive, just more information, do's and don'ts on use of various oils, or additives. FWIW. visit, www.zddplus.com

                          Dan Miller
                          Atlanta, GA

                          [img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
                          Road Racers turn left AND right.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            While on the oil subject if i remember right i read either on the forum or in TW that 40 weight oils should not be used period, what gives? G.L.McVey

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I believe that advice is for *10W40* not straight 40 weight. The reasoning is that 10W40 has a really wide viscosity spread requiring lots of VI improvers which can break down under heat/pressure. You'll notice that all multi-viscosity HDEOs are pretty much univerally 15W40, unless they are synthetic.

                              nate

                              --
                              55 Commander Starlight
                              http://members.cox.net/njnagel
                              --
                              55 Commander Starlight
                              http://members.cox.net/njnagel

                              Comment

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