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1964 GT Hawk R2 Brake Issue

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  • CO64
    replied
    OK, Thx Joe. I will pull a wheel and look. I will take the recommendation on getting the other manuals. Thx

    Not that I would know, but the HV unit looks like it has been there for a long time and the brake lines that extend from it, looked properly aged as well. I just wouldn't know if it was for drums or discs.

    I will be reaching out to Daniel/Schmidt to speak with them. In reviewing their pictures in detail, I noticed that the car had just about 200 miles less on the OD in those pics than it does now. I have the name of the person/dealer that sent the car to Mecum. Somewhere in there all that lovely documentation has been separated from the car. I will investigate.

    I'll post back up when I get the measurement.

    Thank you for help. The picture of what I have is clearer now. While the car is drivable on surface streets, I still have no brake lights. Not sure how long that has been the case. Seems curious that someone would go to all of that effort to change things over and just not do anything about brake lights...

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  • JoeHall
    replied
    Yours will still have the hubs in place, but just measure across the drum face, as I did: Click image for larger version

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  • JoeHall
    replied
    Looking at all pix, it appears your brakes are a hodge podge today, but likely came with non-power drums, front and rear. I see a Turner front disc kit and tandem MC kit. The pedal linkage is set for taller pedal height, consistent with standard brakes, yet has a power brake pad. There's no mention of power brakes (drum or disc) in the Production Sheet, yet there's a fluid reservoir on the firewall, which was ONLY used on 63-64 GTs with PDBs. Yet the HV is the model for power drum brakes, not power discs.

    Since your priority is on brakes that work well, and the Turner kits are already in place, consider yourself lucky if your GT came with front drums (power or standard). The reason is, it will have 10" rear drums with self energizing shoes. If it came with front PDBs, it will have 11" non-energizing rears. The 11" are the worst balance match with front discs and tandem MC, with rear brakes plumbed to bypass the HV. Easiest way to know whether your car has 10" or 11" rears is to remove a rear wheel and measure. I will attach pix of 10" and 11" drums for comparison, so you can figure out which you have. With either 10" or 11" rear drums you can still have good brakes, but let's hope yours are 10"!
    Last edited by JoeHall; 03-25-2020, 09:33 PM.

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  • RadioRoy
    replied
    In addition to the shop manual, you should order the chassis parts catalog and the body parts catalog. They show almost every part on the car, its proper name, and the Studebaker part number.

    All the Studebaker parts dealers have these catalogs.

    All the Studebaker parts dealers use these part numbers to supply parts.

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  • JoeHall
    replied
    If you click on the link in post #13 here, you can scroll through lots of pix, including the Product Sheet. Can you confirm whether the pix at that link are of your car?

    UPDATE: Never mind the link is to your car, since your car's serial number (64V1085) is clearly shown in the Production Sheet there. Also, looks like it was shipped new to Devon PA, on 09/04/63.
    Last edited by JoeHall; 03-25-2020, 03:31 PM.

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  • CO64
    replied
    OK, I'm back. Thank you for the continued interest. Really great forum to all of your credit.

    So, got to the car and determined that the hydrovac is completely disconnected, therefore no brake lights.
    Also confirmed that the dual MC is mounted in the original spot and connected to the pedal and serves the front discs and rear drums.
    I have lots of pictures that I will post here below.
    .
    Discs are ventilated, so per my new and pristine shop manual, the original discs appeared to be solid. I am guessing it is aftermarket.
    Here are the brake pedal dimensions: pedal is 2 3/4" x 4 1/2" and the base of the pedal is 7 1/2" from the carpet. Pedal is not suspended, but goes down through floor.
    One picture is of a brake proportioning valve that is in the line going to the rear of the car. Obviously not stock.

    As to a couple of the posts: There was no paperwork that came with he car. That line item was lined through by Mecum, so nothing was provided. I have found re-printed owners manuals and ordered one. Have the shop manual now.

    I am very interested in accumulating any history on the car. The place that sent the car to Mecum was Timeless Horsepower under Brett Watson's name. I have called him once and left a message. I am interested to see what I can find out. I will check out the info in the links after I get this posted. Thx for info on how to get the production order.

    As to pics:

    I have pics of the Brake fluid reservoir, MC, Bendix HV system with 2 bleeders and a couple of pics of the front discs and the cowl tag for fun.

    I am interested in the best way to proceed. If it was a 4-drum system, I would like to leave the discs there, just need to figure a way to make them work well-enough so I don't feel like I need to open the door and use my heel to stop the Hawk : ). So, if going to stock is not really going to improve stopping much, I will concede and move towards getting the best parts to make the disc/drum system work. Might be a challenge with the hydrovac unit that likely cannot be used with an aftermarket system.

    I'll see what your recommendations are. Thanks as always.

    Art

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  • Colgate Studebaker
    replied
    One of the two '64 GT's I bought was one of the 7 original "show circuit" cars built for the auto show season in '63. It was a sister car to this one, identically built. It had a plug in the gas tank also, so that the fuel could be removed from the tank while at the shows. In the condition it was when I bought it, there was no hydrovac or brake parts on the car. That is the car I sold to Brian Greenall in Australia so that I could concentrate on the other car, which is still a long way from being done. Bill

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  • JoeHall
    replied
    Originally posted by az64stude View Post
    https://www.schmitt.com/inventory/ds...charged-coupe/
    This looks like your car. Very nice
    If this is the OP's car, there is no mention of PDBs on any of the paperwork I could see, unless they are included in the, "37 HI PERF PKG R2". However, I can see that it has the reservoir on the firewall, but a HV for drum brakes. So, if it has DBs, no mater if OEM or Turners, they will never work well (hard pedal) with the lower PSI drum brake HV. Nor will the rears work well with the tandem MC, plumbed to bypass the HV, if they are 11" drum type, which came with factory PDB. On the other hand, if they are the 10", self energizing type that came with front drums, they will work quite well if plumbed separately, provided the shoe liner is good quality.

    No need to buy a Production Order, as a perfectly readable one is shown in the ad.

    Option 122, GAS TANK DRAIN PLUG is interesting, and no charge listed.
    Last edited by JoeHall; 03-24-2020, 08:15 PM.

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  • studegary
    replied
    I was under the impression that the production order went with the sale of this Hawk.

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  • az64stude
    replied
    https://www.schmitt.com/inventory/ds...charged-coupe/
    This looks like your car. Very nice

    Leave a comment:


  • jbwhttail
    replied
    We also have a 64 R2 GT with power disc brakes, we converted to a dual master cylinder Turner brake system. If you can figure out exactly what front disc you have I could take pictures of how we plumbed ours. you can pm me ore email me at jbwhttail@aol.com for my phone number if you wish to talk. Also I agree Joe Hall is the guru for anything brale related, his advice is well above my expertise!

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  • studegary
    replied
    The production order can be ordered from the Studebaker National Museum. You can do it online.

    EDIT: If your car spent most of its life in Colorado, I believe that I remember it from years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • CO64
    replied
    Hi Forum,

    Thanks for the additional information. While I have not been able to go over by the car (I'm one of the lucky ones still working : ), it appears to me, this is some type of modification from original. Im sure the intentions were noble, but the results are a bit unsettling after about 45 mph.

    Picking up on one comment above:

    Where do I get a copy of my factory production order for my car? Apparently it has a little history. NY auto show, first Hawk manufactured for 64, etc. Love to have the info.
    Let me know.

    More to come.

    Thx All

    Art
    SCW AZ

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  • studegary
    replied
    Not related to your problem, but something that you commented on a couple of times. All Studebakers, other than Hawks, power disc brake cars and Standard models, had a dual master cylinder split brake system from the factory starting with the 1963 model year.

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  • Jeffry Cassel
    replied
    stopping power with Bendix booster and disc brakes on 63-64 Studebaker is underwhelming. Has anyone tried the simple fix of installing a non-power brake pedal on one of these cars? With dual system and poor braking it usaually means the mc is bad and only one side is working. Or maybe somebody screwed it up, which , in my experience, is just about all the darn time. Gonna have to check it all out, but no problem since the Chinese virus has us spending lots of time at home and SI and Rock Auto are still open.

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