STUDEBAKER TUNNEL RAM INTAKES LOOK.

[JBody]

quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

I think J might have attempted to make joke...

Key word...attempted.



Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

[IMG][/IMG]

Sir, I can't help it if you or anyone else just doesn't "get" a joke. I certainly "get"the drift of your sarcasm, Which actually is a form of humor. LOL. So, If you don't mind, Please post some photos of the cars you've personally installed Tunnel Rams on, since you seem to be taking a position in favor of this project. Gotcha, buddy. Now, Here's another sugglestion for someone here with time on their hands, looking for a novel application for a tunnel ram: Build one to put on a GMC Diesel-powered Motorhome. Or, a Zip Van. No wait: a 56 Packard Caribbean. Cooooool! They may not run better,or at all, but it will sure impress a few(very few) people.[xx(]

[buddymander]

Um, er, getting back to the original thread...The two areas that I see improvement needed in this tunnel ram configuration are in the plenum size and runner shape. Why have the plenum extend past the edge of the ports; causing extra turbulance? Why not have more directed flow to each port? Why not have tapered ports from larger to smaller as they extend from the plenum to the port? I really don't get this great big box for a plenum. I must say, tho, the workmanship is amazing.

[PackardV8]

In full-race-normally-aspirated intakes, huge plenums and even huger Dominator 2X4bbls have been found to make max horsepower.

Since Studebaker V8 heads are port-and-intake-valve limited, a very large plenum is not necessary. The size Ken has is a good compromise.

I do agree with MVM as to angling the top and bottom of the mounting face to match the angle of the head port and putting a vee or a turtle shape in the bottom of the plenum.

Bottom line for me; I love the workmanship, but can't ever see putting 2x4bbls on a Stude V8 or cutting a hole in the hood for a supercharger.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

[Mike Van Veghten]

Purely mathmatically....the plenum should be (in the case of these little engines...) should be about the same cubic inches as the engine size.

My 299in. Stude...the math works out to 300cu.in. of manifold volume. Further testing continues from there.

And for best results...the plenum floor should not be flat (parallel to the carburetor base).

Tapering the runners gets into all kinds of weird things. Unless you have a ton of money or time to test...best to leave the runners straight...or such a small taper..it's hardly even noticable.

As for having plenum past the farthest runner...buddy is basically correct. Just enough to heavilly radius the runner inlet, then the wall.
I think there should be another coupla passes of weld around the runner/plenum, to be able to put about 3/8" radius entering into the port.

Mike

[PackardV8]

Hi, Mike,

Calculating plenum volume can be as complicated as we want to make it. Here are some variables:
1. It depends on your RPM range, engine size and intended use of the engine. For instance, An engine utilizing an automatic transmission will have a much smaller plenum than an engine using a four or five speed. An engine with a five speed behind it can use another 20% more plenum volume on the race track. The dynamics of the race track vary slightly from the dyno and in this regard, they vary a LOT! On the dyno you can tune to produce max power by adding a considerable amount of plenum volume. In some cases you can almost double the volume and see a considerable power gain. On the track the engine will lag against the converter or worse yet, just not accelerate at all. Smaller engines, such as our Stude V8s are much more susceptible to this than larger engines, such as pro-stock BBCs.
2. Another formula is 1.5 times the total head and manifold runner volume as a starting point, then consider:
A. If the carb(s) are "too small" you generally want a larger plenum. If the carbs are "too big" you want a smaller plenum.
B. Heavy cars like small plenum volumes, light cars like large plenum volumes.
C. Standard transmissions/low gears like large; automatics/highway gears like a small plenum.
3. The empirically determined equation used at Chrysler back in the long ram '60s was NL=84000, where "N" is the engine rpm and "L" is the distance, along the tube centerline, between the entrance to the plenum and the head of the intake valve. This is for a 200 degree at 0.050 cam with 13 front traverses during valve closure, to "fine tune" the results. If you figure 17 traverses, the tubes get a lot shorter, but the effect isn't as strong. Smooth the entrance (bell mouth) at the plenum/tube interface.
4. A plenum has two effects:
A. Storage if the carbs can't supply enough A/F in real time
B. Helmholtz box to the carbs to fill in power below peak

So, from what little I know on the subject, one plenum size definitely does not fit all.

thnx, jack vines


PackardV8

[DEEPNHOCK]

I truly respect Ken's efforts to actually do something in metal.
Having the equipment (and the machine time) to make stuff is great for us (and a bad sign of the times for the machining industry).
I can understand the compromises that Ken made in his design to make as efficient a design as possible without getting into some wild layout gyrations to make the part.
It's easy to build rocketships on a forum, but a totally different thing to do it in 1:1 scale in real metal.
Kudo's for the effort!
Jeff[8D]



http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

[Flashback]

Great-GReat-GREAT!!! It will run on a street car.
Don't want to offend anyone, but run with the big
dogs, or stay in the bleachers. This could be tuned
with a filler block of several configerations. Maybe
a wedge. Reduce the plenum volume and direct the flow.
This is what hot rodding is all about. atta boy. All
that keeps one off my 259 is limited funds.

Tex E. Grier

[Mike Van Veghten]

Jack -

I understand.
This "is" why I made the statement "further testing from there"!

Also, these numbers (300cu.in.), while slightly different, come from two fairly high end "dyno simulator" programs.
One of them "gives" you the suggested values for a few tuning parameters, the other...you the computer operator...need to try differrent things, around the given thing you are playing with.

And I do understand...all of these things need refining after the initial attempt.
Hence, all this different port work I'm in the middle of currently past the initial experiment done some time ago (as...you may remenber...).

And as Flash says, and I noted somewhere (!), tack welding/screwing in filler blocks is a good tuning tool also.

Mike

P.s. - This is also why I feel headers CAN be made to work and actually make power on a Stude engine...despite may people noting to the contrary. The correct combination apparently just hasen't been found yet...!
That'll be my last experimental playing.

[buddymander]

I always felt that those two center exhaust ports needed separated to actually take advantage of header scavenging. What do you use for filler blocks in an open plenum manifold? I've got a homemade log intake on my 259 Red Ram and the plenums are totally open even to the intake bolts.

[59r2]

Here is an idea for you.The carb base shouldn't be parrell to the floor of the box ,so let's think old school.
How about four of these mounted on the sides to stay under the hood.
http://www.webercarbsdirect.com/45_DCOE_p/19600.075.htm
Get job ,nice work, I admire your skill.
JOE

1959 HARDTOP R2 4speed 1960 conv
SDC member since 1972
IMG]http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff21/59r2/DSC01514-3.jpg[/IMG]

[59r2]

Here is an idea for you.The carb base shouldn't be parrell to the floor of the box ,so let's think old school.
How about four of these mounted on the sides to stay under the hood.
http://www.webercarbsdirect.com/45_DCOE_p/19600.075.htm
Get job ,nice work, I admire your skill.
JOE

1959 HARDTOP R2 4speed 1960 conv
SDC member since 1972
IMG]http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff21/59r2/DSC01514-3.jpg[/IMG]

[DEEPNHOCK]

A few years ago I machined some intake flanges for Alex Magdelino out on the west coast (as well as a billet valley cover).
He used the flanges to build up an intake to mount two Webers.
I think four would be a bit too much, but one could try[]
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by 59r2

Here is an idea for you.The carb base shouldn't be parrell to the floor of the box ,so let's think old school.
How about four of these mounted on the sides to stay under the hood.
http://www.webercarbsdirect.com/45_DCOE_p/19600.075.htm
Get job ,nice work, I admire your skill.
JOE

1959 HARDTOP R2 4speed 1960 conv
SDC member since 1972
IMG]http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff21/59r2/DSC01514-3.jpg[/IMG]

http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

[N8N]

heck, if you're gonna have four webers, don't bother with a "manifold" at all, just make tubes to connect the ports on the heads to the carb bases. probably would be a cast-iron female dog to synch up but it'd look cool

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[buddymander]

Hey deepn, does that weber linkage also play 45rpm records??

[JBody]

Hi, everyone! I just got back from the convenience store, where I bought 10 powerball tickets. When I win 345 mil, more or less, I will go ahead and buy the nicest 58 Golden Hawk I can find, and commission 5-3 Stude to build Me a special tunnel ramm for it, and a special pressure box to accomodate the three-four barrels. Prolly, they will be new old stock ca. 1968 Holley "Three Barrel" carburetors. Don't worry---I've done the physics on this one. I went to one of those "psychics"(get it?) down there by the pawn shops and tattoo parlors, and had a seance, and contacted Albert Einstein, and had him crunch the numbers on this one. He does say that I need to use an experimental "R-9" grind Camshaft, and that the only one in existence is in one of the abandoned cars out at the former Stude test track, near SB. So, I'll need to send my crew out to procure it. Will keep you informed. Later.