Engine swap assistance

[sweetolbob]

My posts show that I have no problem with major engine swaps in Studebakers. But if you are upgrading 51 years in go power, you should be sure you have comparable stopping power. It's like 4-wheel drive in snow. Go to beat heck, but doesn't stop any better than 2-wheel drive.

When I upgraded 54K to vette TPI, I also upgraded the brakes to power disk brakes. And if you look at my car, It could be returned to total stude power and brakes, I have the parts. The firewall might be a little more difficult[}]

I'm also a little leary of the cooling of the original radiator, even new to cool 300+ horses. Be sure to upgrade same with dual electric fans. Mine's a vette unit but if I were to do it today, I would go to a Be-Cool radiator. Not only because they are five miles away but make really good products.

JMHO

Bob

[bams50]

I have to cast another vote for avoiding this swap- not because I'm a purist, but for the very logical reasons listed. Every week I see an abandoned project that can't get 10 cents on the dollar. Having done it a few times, I promise you will have more problems than you can ever imagine!

I would caution against it to the point that I'd recommend selling the car and 350/4-spd. and putting the money toward something more suited for what you want to do.

If you really like the car, talk to Bill Cathcart. He can sell you parts or a complete rebuild for your 6, and has some good hop-up equipment for them; and the price may be less than you think.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

[klifton1]

I think a proper transplant with proper care is just as reliable as a rebuilt orig. We have several street rods in the group I run with, that have over 50K and a couple with 100k on them and still going strong.
Klif

55 Speedster

[PackardV8]

Am not aware of any of the above suggesting a modified car is less reliable than a stock one, given a good-science owner/builder. Both Dick and I drive modified cars and are just trying to give a very realistic picture of the challenges.

I work with a rod-shop owner who makes a good living buying for very cheap the failed engine swaps and rod builds of those who underestimated the difficulties and/or costs. He never pays more than one-third-to-one-half their cost of the hard parts and then goes over it subtracting for mis-spent labor. He has been given a project with $25k invested for the cost of the roll-back haul, when the wife said, "It's outta here this weekend, or you are."

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by klifton1

I think a proper transplant with proper care is just as reliable as a rebuilt orig.

Perhaps even MORE reliable, safer, faster, more comfortable, easier to drive, etc.

If those were the ONLY goals, we'd all be doing SOME modifications to our Studes (or forgetting this old car thing and buying a new Toyota ).



Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

[StudeMann]

Here is another thought.

What about the possibility of sending the engine to Cathcart and have it rebuilt and 'warmed-up' to increase the power? That could avoid significant modifications required to switch to V8 power, be it Studebaker or Bow Tie.

This approach might better suit a 'purist' and also address the under-powered stock Champion engine.

Cheers,

Jim


"Ahh, a bear in his natural habitat...a Studebaker!"
Fozzie Bear in 'The Muppet Movie'

51 Land Cruiser (Elsie)
Jim Mann
Victoria, B.C.
Canada

[FlatheadGeo]

Studemann,

That is a very good suggestion. I have dealt with Bill before and value is expertise. A phone call is in order and he is in driving distance of Staten Island.

Thank you,
George.

1957 Studebaker Champion 2 door. Staten Island, New York.

[Jessie J.]

A "hopped-up" Cathcart 170 does look cute with the hood up at a car show, but even with a several thousand dollar build-up, when installed in a full-sized '50s sedan, it will still be a limp noodle in the performance department when in comparison to almost any modern vehicle.
A whole lot of moolah for very little actual gain, and even then a stock '57 Commander would still run rings around it without even straining.
With only 27,000 original miles, it might be assumed that the basic body and chassis is still solid and presentable, although woefully underpowered, (as it has been since day one). Modifying the original flatty is never going to substantially change the basic engineering short-comings of a too small & outdated engine powering such a large sedan.
If significantly increased performance is the goal, then a swap to a larger, or a more efficient design modern engine is the logical choice, this however does not necessarily entail the hot-rodders favorite high-HP SBC, or even a V-8 for that matter, as there are a variety of readily available modern "V" and "straight" sixes that efficiently and reliably produce double or triple the power and torque of that old flat-motor.

Or then again, as I suggested earlier, with a V-8 parts car, and with unbolt and bolt back together simplicity, and no re-engineering involved, a '57 Champion can be upgraded into a "Commander", still to all appearances other than one letter on the VIN tag, an original and "classic" Studebaker, rather than an obvious "hot rod".

As for the 350 4-speed swap, I have examined several over the years, as swaps go it is really not all that difficult. If you decide to proceed in that direction, you will have more room to work with than on the popular C&K coupes or the latter Larks. But you will still be needing to fabricate and adapt almost everything from mounts to linkages, wiring, exhaust pipes, and radiator hoses. And of course you will still need to install a stronger rear axle, bigger radiator, and upgraded brakes.
Will the results of any of these choices be "worth it"? You are the only one who can answer that.
Some Stude "experts" will despise what you have done regardless of how well, or how successful you are in pulling it off, in their eyes you will have "ruined" a perfectly nice old Studebaker.
Others, while they will claim to appreciate your workmanship and efforts, should sale time come, will want to negotiate a reduction in the asking price because it is no longer a "numbers matching original".
Just the way it is, and always has been. You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself. Life is short, make it yours.

[Warren Webb]

As has been suggested, you should weigh all the possibles that you can & will encounter. I put a 327 4 speed in my 66 Daytona, but:
1. it originally had a Chevy engine
2. it was originally built with a 3 speed overdrive trans (so clutch linkage was all there & wouldn't need to be modified)
3. trans mount for the 4 speed needed to be moved-fixed that with cutting a section of a front bumper from a Jeep CJ7 & drilling the 4 holes to bolt it to the existing 66 trans crossmember & the 4 speed mount.
4. since the 66 used the same u-joints as a Chevy, I took a Malibu driveshaft to have it cut down & balanced-then a bolt in deal.
5. Hurst 4 speed linkage for a 57 Chevy put the shifter about 1/2 inch in front where the 4 speed boot mounted from a Stude setup, but again, this is for bucket seats. Clearance for a bench seat may not be enough.

Hope this helps in making your choice.

60 Lark convertible
61 Champ
62 Daytona convertible
63 G.T. R-2,4 speed
63 Avanti (2)
66 Daytona Sport Sedan

[JDC]

Just for kicks, anyone have a Cathart hoped up 6? I have been curious about these. I would think that a 35-40 hp increase would be enough for a 50's Studebaker. Just curious.

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by JDC

Just for kicks, anyone have a Cathart hoped up 6? I have been curious about these. I would think that a 35-40 hp increase would be enough for a 50's Studebaker. Just curious.

Are you sure about those HP #'s? Even with his stage IV that sounds like a big increase...50% or so.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

[JDC]

I think they were stock at 85 and he has the increase up to 120 on his site. Last I looked.

[JDC]

Just found this on his site,

"How much horse power increase can be made in a Champion engine, that depends on which engine you are using, the 170 CU IN engine or the 185 CU IN engine, if you look at percentages, it is as follows, Offenhauser in there add states a 20 H.P increase by using there dual intake manifold, add a set of headers and pickup another 5 percent, add a hi lift cam and add another 10 , add bigger intake valves and a port and polish job and add another 5 raise the compression up to say 8.5 or 9:00 to 1 and add another 5 percent for a total of 45 percent so a 170 of 85 H.P is now 123 H.P and a 185 of 101 H.P. is now 145 H.P."

Knew I didn't make it up. If at 123hp, with less weight than the V8, it would put it in a comparable power ratio.

[Carl Purdy]

I know I shouldn't be into this discussion. But years ago I had a flat head 6 that had a knock. It drove me crazy. I keep seeing that I had to add water every so often. We were discussing this at work. It would knock at idle but would go away when you gave it the gas. I pulled the plugs and one was clean as new. Turns out I had water getting into the cylinder. I drove it another 3000 miles and made a Commander out of it.


7G-Q1 49 2R12 10G-F5 56B-D4 56B-F2
As soon as you find a product you like they will stop making it.

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by JDC


Knew I didn't make it up. If at 123hp, with less weight than the V8, it would put it in a comparable power ratio.

Thanks...That is the same or more than a 232 V8. Should actually be faster than a Commander since the 6 is substantially lighter. Wonder if you would still have to upgrade the transmission, rear end and brakes in that case.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA