More oil stuff

[robtc]

For those that need a reliable source of ZDDP, check out Moss Motors, part number 220-810.

Moss has been around forever and specializes in MGs, Triumphs, and other old and never practical British sports cars.

[Mike Van Veghten]

Will it ever end...................?

Mike

[Lenny R2]

A lot of Sdudebaker Vendors are selling ZDDP aditive
support them.

Lenny
Atlanta Ga.

[Swifster]

quote:Originally posted by Lenny R2

A lot of Sdudebaker Vendors are selling ZDDP aditive
support them.

It's not an additive. It's 'Collectors Choice' motor oil. It's another 20W50, which is exempt from decreases in ZDDP. All 20W50 has full ZDDP levels.

Collectors Choice = http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewP...eIndexID=65910

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Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

[N8N]

I picked up some oil today, Rotella is still marked CI-4 plus (along with CJ) the Mobil and Chevron oils were CJ only however.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[StudeMann]

Just to add to the confusion/discussion - Another source for Zddp is AC Delco Engine Oil Supplement #992869.

My brother-in-law is an engine builder and mechanic for an 800+hp, 8000 rpm, 15:1 compression methanol-injected sprint car and he uses the AC Delco additive. The class of cars he runs does not allow roller cams; only flat tappets. He uses this product both to coat the bearings during rebuild and as an additive in the motor oil. As an aside, like us Studebaker enthusiasts he likes to be different, so he runs a Ford motor; not an SBC.

In addition to his racing experience, he has been a heavy duty mechanic for about 30 years, dealing with large diesel trucks, excavating equipment and hydraulic systems. I have discussed oil composition and additives with him at length and he does not recommend using diesel oil in gasoline engines (as some have suggested on the forum) because the oils have been developed to deal with the very different stresses and speed differences between diesel and gasoline engines. He also doesn't recommend using a 20w-50 oil unless the oil pressure is unusually low due to high bearing clearances from worn bearings.

His concern is achieving a balance between the flushing function of the oil and maintaining the lubrication film in the bearings. The 'flushing' action helps move any crud or wear particles from the bearings to the filter and is best achieved with a lighter oil. However, a light oil doesn't necessarily give the best lubrication for bearing support. That doesn't mean a heavy oil is always better for bearings either because if the oil is too heavy for a small clearance, it can 'shear', lubrication is lost and the bearing can fail.

When I told him I was using 10w-40 Pennzoil in my original (un-rebuilt) 232 V8 he confirmed my choice as appropriate for my engine and oil pressure and gave me several bottles of the additive to help protect the tappets.

For what it's worth...

Jim

"Ahh, a bear in his natural habitat...a Studebaker!"
Fozzie Bear in 'The Muppet Movie'

51 Land Cruiser (Elsie)
Jim Mann
Victoria, B.C.
Canada

[StudeRich]

These people are pretty tricky Nate, they managed to fool you, and I know you are a pretty knowledgeable guy!!

Any COMBINATION of API "C" ratings is NOT the same as CI-4 alone!

It does have SOME ZDDP, but meets the new standard for Diesels which has a way lower ZDDP level. It will not be enough to protect a flat tappet cam gasoline engine however.

I think we have gone 360 with this Diesel thing, now we are back to Automotive 20W-50 weight oil ONLY!

quote:Originally posted by N8N

I picked up some oil today, Rotella is still marked CI-4 plus (along with CJ) the Mobil and Chevron oils were CJ only however.
nate

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

[fmarshall]

Excerpt borrowed from High Performance Pontiac (HPP) article, Juggling The Truth About Today's Oil - Engine Oil Tech:

Juggling The Truth About Today's Oil - Engine Oil Tech

Crane Cams
Crane Cams has been a flat-tappet camshaft-manufacturing leader since the early '50s, and though the company has ventured into various other valvetrain-and ignition-related-components over the years, camshafts remain among its most popular products. Like any camshaft manufacturer, Crane Cams admits that today's oil formulation is an area of concern. Tony Vigo, Crane Cams' Media Liaison and Technical Advisor, shared some of those concerns-and his suggested solutions-with us.

Crane Cams offers its own highly concentrated lubricant that it suggests for flat-tappet camshafts. An entire 8-ounce bottle of No. 99003-1 Super Lube Break-In Concentrate is combined with certain oils during break-in, while the company suggests combining a lesser amount with any modern mineral-based oil for normal use.
Crane Cams offers its own highly concentrated lubricant that it suggests for flat-tappet camshafts. An entire 8-ounce bottle of No. 99003-1 Super Lube Break-In Concentrate is combined with certain oils during break-in, while the company suggests combining a lesser amount with any modern mineral-based oil for normal use.

High Performance Pontiac: Is current oil formulation an area of concern for Crane Cams?
Tony Vigo: Yes, the reduction of the zinc-phosphorus compound (ZDDP) from most modern engine oil has definitely accelerated flat-tappet camshaft lobe and lifter wear.

HPP: Have these changes affected the way your company manufactures or markets flat-tappet cams?
TV: No, not at all. Our flat-tappet camshafts remain a popular hobbyist choice, and to ensure longevity, we are recommending specific break-in procedures using products like Brad Penn motor oil, or such diesel-specific oils as Shell ROTELLA T, Mobil Delvac, and Chevron Delo 400.

HPP: Can you briefly outline your suggested break-in procedure?
TV: It really isn't that much different than what hobbyists are already familiar with, but we do offer a few suggestions aimed at proper lobe-to-lifter mating. Complete instructions are included with each cam and lifter set we sell.

We recommend that each lobe and lifter be thoroughly coated with our No. 99004-1 Super Moly Assembly Lube, which is included, and to combine said oil with an 8-ounce bottle of our No. 99003-1 Super Lube Break-in Concentrate.

After setting valve lash or lifter preload-and priming the fuel and oil system-start the engine and immediately begin cycling its speed from 1,500 to 3,000 rpm for 20 to 30 minutes. If the camshaft requires high valve spring pressure, we suggest removing the inner spring during break-in. Once the process is complete, the camshaft should be ready for normal use.

HPP: What are your suggested oil change practices during normal use?
TV: We recommend that the first oil change occurs within 500 miles of initial break-in, and then follow that with normal change intervals that include any high-quality 5W-30 or 10W-30 mineral-based oil, and at least 4 ounces of our Super Lube Break-In Concentrate.

HPP: Could you explain the benefits of your No. 99003-1 Super Lube Break-In Concentrate?
TV: It's a product much like General Motor's E.O.S.-an anti-wear additive containing a high concentration of ZDDP that's designed to protect the camshaft lobe and lifter against scuffing and wear during break-in. When used moderately at each oil change, it has little effect on emissions equipment, and greatly enhances the long-term life of the cam.

HPP: Is there any chance your company could discontinue or reformulate Super Lube Break-In Concentrate in the future?
TV: We plan to market it as long as we produce flat-tappet camshafts, and have an ongoing oil additive evaluation program to continually further its development and monitor effectiveness.

Brad Penn
Industry experts have long considered Pennsylvania-grade crude oil among the best in the world, and one of the most popular engine oils r

[mweiss]

valvoline 20/50 racing oil has full complement of zddp; available at local parts houses

ok

[WCP]

Valvoline also markets a 10W40 oil for ATV's and one for motorcycles (they are essentially the same) that contains 1200ppm zddp. You can check their composition on their website. I'm using the ATV oil plus Compcam breakin additive in my R2 with a new cam. Given the Studebaker's oil drainback problems, the 10W40 is a better choice than 20W50. Normal high speed driving will not generate the same heating of the oil that racing will. These 10W40 oils are carried by Autozone.

[colt45sa]

What's the scoop on the synthetic oils?? Are they also deficient in the requirements for solid lifter cams?????

[StudeRich]

If you can find it in 20W-50, you should be OK, Castrol recommends their Syntec 20W-50 for Classic cars on their website which was posted here sometime back.

Read all about it on their site:
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/gener...Id=7032644#top

quote:Originally posted by colt45sa

What's the scoop on the synthetic oils?? Are they also deficient in the requirements for solid lifter cams?????

StudeRich -Studebakers Northwest Ferndale, WA

[curt]

auto Zone has SL oil for older cars, it is NOT for the newer cars. I would think this SL oil would be Fine. Any thoughts?

[61Lark]

So what level of ZDDP should we be using? Rotela supposedly has around 1400-1500 ppm and other 15W40 Diesel oils have about the same.

In road and track this past summer they mentioned that the newest lower standard only effected 30 weight oils and below. I believe that 10W40 would be a logical choice but I can't find a published ZDDP level any where. I'm almost considering sending in a sample to a lab to get a base number.

The ZDDP level that I have in my freshly rebuilt R1 is important to me, but the 61 straight 6 will probably last forever no matter what oil I put in it. Here is a link to one lab: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/index.html

Nick

[fmarshall]

Sending oil to the blackstone lab has other benefits too. They can tell you how frequently you should change the oil, based on your oil, your car, and how it is driven. This is far better than just every 3,000 miles or whatever is the marketed interval by the oil companies.

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63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA