Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

full flow oil filter

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • full flow oil filter

    Having been brought up with Ford flathead engines, I know that the filters only serviced 60% of the oil. Are the Stude filters any better? The reason I want to know is that my filter leaks around the top and I have to put silicone sealer on it. I'm considering a remote filter set up, but if the filter does a good job cleaning I might just buy a new one. Thanks.
    Joe

  • #2
    Define 'Full Flow'...
    If you mean a cannister filter up on top of the engine...
    (or any filter on top of the engine)...
    That is not a 'full flow' oil filter.
    It is a partial flow oil filter.
    By industry definitions, it means that only some of the oil in the engine gets filtered.
    (probably where you got the 60% figure.
    They tap a convenient oil source and filter that oil and then dump it back into the sump (usually with some form of restriction fittion to prevent excessive pressure loss).
    On the other hand...
    A 'full flow' oil filter system has ALL the oil that goes through the oil pump going from the oil pump to (and through) the oil filter and then going on to the oil galleries.
    This way ALL of the oil lubricating the cam and crank gets filtered.
    The only way this would work is to have a high pressure bypass valve built into the filter can itself.
    This was something that was not patented until 1959.
    About that time is when you saw the partial flow setups disappear.
    (Of course, one of the exceptions was Studebaker, where there was an extenal (to the filter) pressure relief valve)
    If your filter housing is leaking around the top, it probably needs a new gasket, and check the can and lid for distortion.
    Overtightening causes the cans to mork.
    Hope the info helps.
    Jeff[8D]


    quote:Originally posted by jmccarrol@hotmail.com

    Having been brought up with Ford flathead engines, I know that the filters only serviced 60% of the oil. Are the Stude filters any better? The reason I want to know is that my filter leaks around the top and I have to put silicone sealer on it. I'm considering a remote filter set up, but if the filter does a good job cleaning I might just buy a new one. Thanks.
    Joe
    http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock
    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

    Jeff


    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

    Comment


    • #3
      My understanding is that even the earlier Stude partial flow filters did a pretty good job.

      ALL the oil in the engine gets filtered in a partial flow filter...just not 100% of the oil coming out of the oil pump.

      If you're driving your Stude 15,000 miles a year, the full flow filter would probably be best. If you drive it a couple of thousand miles a year, it probably doesn't matter...if you change the oil every 6 months. In fact NO filter is probably fine for the mileage most Studes are driven today.

      Dick Steinkamp
      Bellingham, WA



      Dick Steinkamp
      Bellingham, WA

      Comment


      • #4
        quote:Originally posted by jmccarrol@hotmail.com
        The reason I want to know is that my filter leaks around the top and I have to put silicone sealer on it. Joe
        Joe: Are you saying you have a replaceable-cartridge "can-type" filter on top of your engine and the lid is leaking? If so, please don't try to seal it with silicone. It takes a lot of pressure when cold and might burst when you least expect it, creating one helluva mess.

        I know the neoprene-type gaskets furnished with current filter elements are lousy and frequently do not seal. Take the time to make your own cover gasket from the best dense cork or cardboard-type gasket material you can buy. It won't leak and you won't have to use sealer. (I know; I fought this with my 1956 Clipper's cartridge filter a couple years ago.) BP
        We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

        Ayn Rand:
        "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

        G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Sorry for the mis-information. The car in question is a 52 Champion 6 cylinder, with the oil filter on top of the engine. I prefer the stock looking canistor, but I was wondering if the remote filters from the performance shops, would perform better thus adding to the life of the engine. Thanks.
          Joe

          Comment


          • #6
            quote:Originally posted by jmccarrol@hotmail.com

            Sorry for the mis-information. The car in question is a 52 Champion 6 cylinder, with the oil filter on top of the engine. I prefer the stock looking canistor, but I was wondering if the remote filters from the performance shops, would perform better thus adding to the life of the engine. Thanks.
            Joe
            The aftermarket one would perform the same as your stock one does.

            Dick Steinkamp
            Bellingham, WA



            Dick Steinkamp
            Bellingham, WA

            Comment


            • #7
              You mean that the other way around, don't you Dick?

              On a partial flow (pre-1962 and all canister type filters)
              'ALL' of the oil that goes through the filter gets filtered...yes...
              But not ALL of the oil coming out of the oil pump gets filtered.
              On a partial flow setup the oil pump pushes oil directly up into the camshaft oil gallery where it lubes the cam bearings and then the crankshaft main bearings and then the connecting rod bearings (cross drilled off of the crankshaft main bearing journals.
              On a V8, a passage off of the camshaft oil gallery is connected to a clearanced area that allows oil pressure to come up around one of the cylinder head bolts studs where it pressurizes a passage cast into the cylinder head. This passage also intersects one of the rocker shaft mount studs and is clearanced to allow oil to go around the bolt and up into the rocker shaft mount, and into the rocker shaft.
              The passage in the head also has a tapped and capped port on the outside that can be set up with a fitting to go to an optional and partial flow oil filter.
              But not ALL the oil goes through the filter before going to the cam, main, and rod bearings.
              Just some oil (whatever happens to go through that passageway)
              Sure, through repetition, all the oil will make its way through the filter eventually, but it is an 'open' type system.

              Now, On a true 'full flow' system, the oil gets pushed out of the oil pump...and into the filter...and then it goes to the cam oil gallery where it supplies clean filtered oil to the camshaft bearings, the crankshaft main bearings, and then the crankshaft rod bearings (and the rocker shafts)...

              The only difference between a Ford/Chevy/Dodge of the era that has a 'full flow' system and a Stude 'full flow' system is the location of the pressure relief valve.

              There is a difference in the spin on filter for a 'partial flow' system and a 'full flow' system.
              On a 'full flow' spin on filter there is going to be a pressure sensitive bypass valve built into the spin on filter.
              This built in check valve allows oil to bypass the filter in high pressure situations (i.e.: cold start up and clogged filter scenarios).
              This way the engine bearings will not be starved for oil.
              On a partial flow system, this won't happen because if the oil filter is clogged, the bearings will still be getting oil pressure and flow...So there is no bypass valve in a partial flow spin on filter (nor is there an anti-drain back valve...which would be a nice thing)...
              Hopefully not sounding nitpicking....
              Filters are kind of important to me lately
              Jeff[8D]



              quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

              <snip>
              ALL the oil in the engine gets filtered in a partial flow filter...just not 100% of the oil coming out of the oil pump.
              <snip>
              HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

              Jeff


              Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



              Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

              Comment


              • #8
                [quote]quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

                But not ALL the oil goes through the filter before going to the cam, main, and rod bearings.
                Just some oil (whatever happens to go through that passageway)
                Sure, through repetition, all the oil will make its way through the filter eventually

                Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

                <snip>
                ALL the oil in the engine gets filtered in a partial flow filter...just not 100% of the oil coming out of the oil pump.
                <snip>
                I think we are saying the same thing...mine may not be as clear as it should be.

                Dick Steinkamp
                Bellingham, WA



                Dick Steinkamp
                Bellingham, WA

                Comment


                • #9
                  I read it exactly the way you mean't it Dick: all of the oil (in the engine) does get filtered, (eventially) just not before going to the bearings! So that corrects the statement "only 60% of the oil gets filtered"! [^]

                  quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


                  ALL the oil in the engine gets filtered in a partial flow filter...just not 100% of the oil coming out of the oil pump.
                  <snip>
                  I think we are saying the same thing...mine may not be as clear as it should be.Dick Steinkamp
                  StudeRich
                  Studebakers Northwest
                  Ferndale, WA
                  StudeRich
                  Second Generation Stude Driver,
                  Proud '54 Starliner Owner

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    That is exactly why I asked Joe to define 'full flow' as it was stated in his header.
                    He asked a good question and had mentioned something that was fitting for a partial flow filter setup.
                    Dick said that all of the oil gets filtered with a partial flow filter, and that is not technically correct for a partial flow setup.
                    (sigh, now I am splitting hairs)...
                    Adding the word 'eventually' doesn't make it a full flow either Rich.
                    The info we share on a tech forum needs to be accurate (to the best of our abilities)..
                    I do a bit in the filter world and can share some fact based info with this forum...
                    It is not intended to be preachy or anything.
                    Just as accurate as I can make it.
                    That is why I do not jump in and add stuff to threads that I am not schooled on or well versed on.
                    Sorry if it sounded harsh...It wasn't meant to be.
                    Jeff[8D]






                    quote:Originally posted by StudeRich

                    I read it exactly the way you mean't it Dick: all of the oil (in the engine) does get filtered, (eventially) just not before going to the bearings! So that corrects the statement "only 60% of the oil gets filtered"! [^]
                    HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

                    Jeff


                    Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



                    Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This is getting interesting. I'll stick with the stock canistor and make my own gasket from cork as suggested. Thanks for all the valuable info. There is a large flea market here in Barrie Sept. 4-7 so I should be able to get a new filter etc. Joe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It sounds to Me as if both filtration schemes are actually "partial flow" to varying degrees, since there is a bypass valve on the so-called "Full Flow" system. Evidently, when the oil is cold and highly viscous(during and for awhile after startup), the bypass valve in a full-flow system allows it to flow to the bearings without being filtered, so that it is not really true "full flow" filtration! That said, I'm Just sitting here, thinking my daily-driver, in-town putt-putt car is prolly way overdue for an oil change, since it makes so many short trips.......[:0]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Let's not obsess too much over semantics. The full-flow filter is plumbed into the oil stream from the pump, and filters 100% of the pump's output except in those brief periods where the bypass valve opens.

                          The bypass oil filter (canister or spin-on) taps a small fraction of the oil stream, filters it, and returns it to the crankcase. Run the engine long enough, and eventually all the oil in the engine will have made a pass through the filter. How long it takes for the filter to have effectively filtered all the oil in the sump, I don't know, but remember that bypass filters were used for better than 30 years, and were standard equipment on all military equipment.

                          I have seen claims that bypass filters can use a finer filtering media, and thus trap smaller grit particles, because they don't have to flow the entire output of the pump. Whether that's true in practice, again, I don't know.

                          I'd say the bottom line for most of us, is use good oil, and good filters (whichever style is provided), and change both at regular intervals.

                          Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands
                          Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you Gord...
                            On the technical side, there is a difference between a pressure relief valve and a bypass valve.
                            On a Stude V8, built into the block is an oil pressure relief valve.
                            This valve is to limit the top end oil pressure to prevent damage to the pump drive components
                            (cam gear, distributor drive gear, oil pump shaft, etc).
                            Note that modern engines also have this, but most are built right into the oil pump, and are not a serviceable item, like the Studebaker valve is.
                            On (in) an oil filter for a full flow oiling system, it is a bypass valve.
                            The oil will bypass the media 'if' the oil pressure spikes higher (cold startup), or runs higher than the set valve pressure (clogged media).
                            An oil filter for a partial flow oiling system usually does not have any bypass valve....usually.
                            (Some HD truck applications do have relief valves built into the bypass filter)
                            Stude partial flow oil filters have no bypass valve built into them.
                            (There is also no 'drainback valve' in them either, which would be very nice to have. I have checked as to having that added to future production runs of oil filters, but that would take an act of congress)..
                            1936 was about the first year for a bypass filter (or any filter for that matter)....
                            And using a smaller micron rating media on a bypass filter is an option. Used mostly in the industrial markets, most bypass filter elements are sold with micron ratings in mind. Usually segregated as oil filters, or hydraulic filters.
                            Same would go for automotive applications, but you'd have to dig hard to find them that way.

                            Gord's closing comment is spot on (pun intended)...
                            Regular service intervals (months, not miles), and regular filter changes are the best practices method you can use to protect your Studebaker investment.
                            Jeff[8D]

                            quote:Originally posted by gordr

                            Let's not obsess too much over semantics. The full-flow filter is plumbed into the oil stream from the pump, and filters 100% of the pump's output except in those brief periods where the bypass valve opens.
                            The bypass oil filter (canister or spin-on) taps a small fraction of the oil stream, filters it, and returns it to the crankcase. Run the engine long enough, and eventually all the oil in the engine will have made a pass through the filter. How long it takes for the filter to have effectively filtered all the oil in the sump, I don't know, but remember that bypass filters were used for better than 30 years, and were standard equipment on all military equipment.
                            I have seen claims that bypass filters can use a finer filtering media, and thus trap smaller grit particles, because they don't have to flow the entire output of the pump. Whether that's true in practice, again, I don't know.
                            I'd say the bottom line for most of us, is use good oil, and good filters (whichever style is provided), and change both at regular intervals.
                            Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands
                            http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock
                            HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

                            Jeff


                            Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



                            Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              About the oilfilter story,now please practical in users language.I use a full flow filter on apartial filter system because of the antidrain in it, so you have always instantly op.
                              Hope I am doing right,Dick Waterreus,Netherlands

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X