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64 Daytona Tire Selection for Road Racing

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  • 64 Daytona Tire Selection for Road Racing

    I have the chance to run a road course at Brainerd in three weeks. Since I have never done this before I'm thinking of taking my 64 Daytona, because it drives and stops...eventually.

    I can fix the brakes but it doesn't corner too great, so I'm trying to figure out what tires to put on it. I have a set of American Racing Salt Flat Specials for another project. They are 15X6 for the front and 15X7 for the rear.

    I've been looking at what others have done on Larks and have it narrowed down to 205/70, 215/70, or 235/60. Does any one have any experience with any of these tires? Do they rub? I know StudeDave57 has posted that 215/70s rub on his 64 4 door, but I'm hoping that the lighter weight of a hardtop and HD springs would help that. I'm currently leaning towards the 215/70s. This set up will ultimately be used on a 63 Avanti so it would also help if it would fit on that car as well.

    Nick

  • #2
    Also keep in mind that any extra weight in the 4 door would be in the rear, but since Dave's Cruiser is actually a over 100 LB. lighter IN THE FRONT '65 283, it does weigh the same! [:0]

    StudeRich
    Studebakers Northwest
    Ferndale, WA
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner

    Comment


    • #3
      Nick~
      My car is a '65 Cruiser. She is a 283/automatic, with power disc brakes, power steering and HD springs all around. She's also got close to 300,000 miles on her. It's been at least 100,000 miles since her front end was last rebuilt. Her shocks are worn out. Her tires are BFG 215/70s mounted on 15x7 "O.E. style Ford/GM" rims I got from Coker. I later learned they are made by Wheel Vintiques. (I doubt that spelling is right, BTW) I drive her hard, but not nearly as hard as I could/would if I was on a track!!! No telling what that might be like~ not yet, anyway... [:0]
      The tires only rub when turning into certain driveways that are sloped just right.



      I don't know if this helps or hurts, but that's what I know. Maybe ask my brother Mike (hotwheels62R2) if he has contact info on the '64 that he sees racing from time to time, or ask Dan Miller (ROADRACELARK) about the set ups he's run in the past. Those are both pure race cars, though...



      StudeDave '57 [8D]
      San Diego, Ca.
      San Diego County SDC

      www.studebakersandiego.com

      '54 Commander Regal 4dr 'Ruby'
      '57 Parkview 'Betsy' (she's a 2dr wagon...)
      '57 Commander DeLuxe 2dr 'Baby'
      '57 Champion Custom 2dr 'Jewel'
      '58 Packard sedan 'Cleo'
      '65 Cruiser 'Sweet Pea'

      Part owner of the one and only
      '55 PROTOTYPE panel van
      StudeDave '57
      US Navy (retired)

      3rd Generation Stude owner/driver
      SDC Member since 1985

      past President
      Whatcom County Chapter SDC
      San Diego Chapter SDC

      past Vice President
      San Diego Chapter SDC
      North Florida Chapter SDC

      Comment


      • #4
        I think the '55 Carrera coupe that was at Reedsville last year had 215/60 Kumhos on D-hole NASCAR style wheels. I noticed that because the tires he had on there were identical to the ones I run on my Porsche 944 (and, incidentally, on the front of my own '55 coupe - they're cast-offs from the Porsche, and will be replaced with something a little higher profile once I get everything sorted out.) We have a lot of discussion here about wheel and tire fitment but when you're racing the priorities become a little different than for a typical street rod/cruiser. Lower profile will effectively lower your gear ratio which is nice, and give crisper handling. Also Larks have very poor tire clearance in the front; my '62 would rub on anything until I finally gave up and put 14" wheels on it.

        In fact, if you want to investigate the 14" option and you are nearby, I have a whole mess of 14x6 and 14x7 Ansen Sprint style wheels that look good on a Lark, in a late 60's/early 70's sort of way.

        Again, if you are buying custom wheels for a Lark, backspace is important, I don't know that any 7" wheel will fit right under the rear fenders unless it has at least 1/2" offset preferably 3/4" (13-20mm) i did have some 14x7s under the rear for a while and they were OK but only because the rear sat high enough with the HD springs that the sidewalls didn't ever get into the fender lip. (most of those old school mags were zero offset or negative offset e.g. "reverse" wheels)

        nate

        --
        55 Commander Starlight
        http://members.cox.net/njnagel
        --
        55 Commander Starlight
        http://members.cox.net/njnagel

        Comment


        • #5
          The brakes are more important than the tires. The first car I put on the track had OEM pads and they faded more and more with every stop. Good brake pads cut my times by 6-7 seconds a lap. Disc brakes or not, the stock pads will fade quickly. Check out Hawk or Ferodo for brake pads. They should also be able to take your old backings to reline them with the good stuff. I can't remember what the cross reference is on the pads (Jag E-Type?), but I bet they have pads in stock even if they don't say Studebaker.

          Hawk Performance = http://www.hawkperformance.com/
          Ferodo Brake Pads = http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/Afte...cingBrakePads/

          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Tom - Mulberry, FL

          1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

          Tom - Bradenton, FL

          1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
          1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

          Comment


          • #6
            Porterfield Brakes in Costa Mesa, CA. (800) 537-6842 just made me up a set of front pads and rear shoes for my '63 Avanti R3. I used their R4S street/track performance compound, but they specialize in race brakes and have several more aggressive compounds and are much more communicative than Hawk(no 17 yr old "order takers").

            Comment


            • #7
              Thank you everybody for the advice. StudeDave, I really like the look of your car with the 215/70 tires on it.

              I would like to do more than just put tires on the car and go racing but that is all I really have time for. I've pondered putting disc brakes on it but with the time and money available it isn't going to happen right now.

              I'm probably going to do a novice class which has a pace car and passing isn't allowed. I just want give it a try because this is something I've been interested in for a while and want to see if I like it. This car won't be made into a race car and the wheel/tire combination will come off after the race. If I do get serious about road racing I have a 63 Lark that needs work but would the perfect car to start with.

              I found a set of 215/75 Firestones that I took off a car last winter because they were horrible winter tires. I did like them in the summer and they weren't bad on a 92 Caprice. If I use these I'll have to find a set of 15X6 wheels in a junk yard, but that shouldn't be a problem. I did have another set of 215/75 on a 61 Lark wagon and they rubbed, but the suspension on that wagon was really sagging.

              Nick

              Comment


              • #8
                If this car doesn't have disk brakes, leave a loottttt of room between you and the car in front of you. Those brakes will fade real quick. Brainerd is a big track and slowing that car won't be easy after the first stab of the brakes.

                Road racing is better than se.., um, it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on. But unless the car is set up for it, your experience may be a bit disappointing. Tires and brakes are the two most important items, but most places will make you go through a complete tech on the car. This means NO LEAKS of any kind, and making sure the car if safe. If you are being paced without passing, you probably won't need a helmet. But many driver school events do require a Snell 00 or newer helmet (sticker is on the inside shell).

                Road racing isn't cheap. Any kind of serious speed will require roll cages, fire suits, etc. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, just don't want you to be disappointed. Check out Mr. Millers Commander and the pictures Mike took at SIR of a '64 Daytona set up for vintage racing. A lot of work and time for ear-to-ear grins (money too!).

                Good luck, drive safe and have fun.

                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Tom - Mulberry, FL

                1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

                Tom - Bradenton, FL

                1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
                1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

                Comment


                • #9
                  just thought of something, if you haven't done it recently, change your brake fluid... old, damp brake fluid boils at a much lower temp than does fresh.

                  nate

                  --
                  55 Commander Starlight
                  http://members.cox.net/njnagel
                  --
                  55 Commander Starlight
                  http://members.cox.net/njnagel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hopefully this is a timed event, and not fender rubbing - because you
                    will be shoving the rear of the car in front of you around turn three.
                    Drum brakes just arent up to the braking you will see on the course, so
                    I hope that its timed, so you can judge room and only knock over cones.

                    You will want at least a 16 inch wheel, and a 50 series tire. The best
                    sizes are 17 and 18 for this type of driving, and a 40 or 45 series. it
                    is important to make sure your brakes are up to the challenge.

                    If you HAVE to stick with the little 15's, then by all means go with a
                    60 series and a 7 inch wide wheel. I ran a 14 x 7 with 235's on my 60
                    Hawk with 60 series tires, I had to roll the rear fenders. Look for
                    contact at FULL lock at the upper zerk fitting on the front upper a-arm.

                    Some good shocks will save your butt, and order the big sway bar kit
                    from T-bow.

                    Tom

                    '63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires
                    '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                    Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                    I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nick,

                      If you go to the member's pictures forum, and down the list about 25 entries, there are some pictures of my Challenger on the track at Road Atlanta. (picture posting thanks go to Matthew Burnette) In the HARD turns it looks as though it leans a pretty good bit....it does. It is set up on Cadillac Fleetwood coil springs with 3 coils cut off and dual front sway bars with heavy duty boxed frame stand-offs and urethane bushings. It has Gabreial(sp) Adjustable shocks on extra firm with a full compliment of delrin control arm bushings and the rest are urethane. The rear springs are 6 leafs with a 56' President sway bar as well as radius rods. Wheels are 15X8 Ford on the front and 15X8 Mopar on the rear. Tires (old) Goodyear Eagle GT 225/70HR15. All 4 fender lips have been "rolled" for tire clearance. No tire rub inside or out. Engine is basicly a stock R-2 with R-3 cast iron headers and an inner-cooler. The cam was profiled by John Reed Cams, Decatur,Ga. Electronic ignition and stock AFB carb. with cold air induction (note missing high beam headlights, the left one feeds the inner-cooler. T-10 4-speed with Hurst shifter and heavy duty driveshaft. 3:73 Twin Traction axle. Brakes are Turner front disc and 11" rear drum with segmented, sintered, full metalic linings. It has a 4 point roll bar.(soon to be upgraded) It weighs aprox. 3000 lbs. with a half tank of fuel and my lard a*s in the seat. I built this car in 1981. It was not an original Super Lark, so don't fret...no authentic Super Lark was "sacrificed" for this project. It's a blast to drive (street legal) and draws a lot of looks at the cruise-ins. I hope some of this will be of help to you. Just a note...regardless of all of the above, the brakes are the most important piece to the puzzle, BT,DT.[}]

                      Dan Miller
                      Atlanta, GA


                      [img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
                      Road Racers turn left AND right.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No matter what tires you put on it, it's not going to matter much...especially since this is your first time out.

                        Sounds like a "Track Day". Not competitive racing (in fact that is frowned on). Just to have some fun, learn a little, and get a feel for your car.

                        Your first problem might be tech. Find out what is expected so you don't get all the way to the track and then are not permitted to run. Generally you'll need a helmet with current code, at least shoulder belts, no antifreeze (water only), catch can, treaded tires, and maybe a few "gotchas". The sponsor's first goal is safety.

                        With a pace car, you most likely won't be able to get up any speed and get in trouble, but even then, take it easy. Driving a car at even 7 10's is VERY different than at 5 10's. You DON'T want to bend your car or someone else's.

                        Have fun, learn the line, be safe. You just might get hooked! [8D]



                        Dick Steinkamp
                        Bellingham, WA



                        Dick Steinkamp
                        Bellingham, WA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Again, thank you everyone for the advice. I believe that the novice class won't be very fast because they don't require a helmet.

                          This year I just going to tag along with my friends and get a idea of how things go and plan for next year. After thinking about it I'd rather take the 63 Lark and get that up to par so it would be fun and safe. Plus if I do make a mistake I'd rather make it in a car that is a little rough around the edges.

                          Thanks again,
                          Nick

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            quote:Originally posted by 61Lark

                            Again, thank you everyone for the advice. I believe that the novice class won't be very fast because they don't require a helmet.

                            This year I just going to tag along with my friends and get a idea of how things go and plan for next year. After thinking about it I'd rather take the 63 Lark and get that up to par so it would be fun and safe. Plus if I do make a mistake I'd rather make it in a car that is a little rough around the edges.
                            Nick, if you don't mind, expand on the event a bit. Who is putting this on? Is this a club event? BMWCCA? Porsche Club? What are the 'classes'? Any idea on how 'competitive' this event is? I realize you may not be able to answer some of these questions until after the event, but having run a car in SCCA ITB as well as participated as a corner worker in SCCA and the BMW Club, I might be able to tell you if your Stude will work in that evironment without a lot of prep work.

                            I'm sure Dan would be a wealth of knowledge from the Stude/Vintage side of things, and I might be able to give you a little more input from a club perspective. The BMWCCA has driving school events that are run-what-you-brung with different levels of skill and prep and they rent out different tracks for 'driver's schools'. Porsche Club events are usually geared more towards the competition side though they are usually picky about the car you show up in vs the BMW group who don't pay attention to manufacturer or VIN number.

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Tom - Mulberry, FL

                            1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

                            Tom - Bradenton, FL

                            1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
                            1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tom,

                              I attended one of the BMWCCA schools at Road Atlanta in about 1994 or 95 (memory gets foggy now too much open exhaust, I guess). Man, was it a blast. Schedule of 20 min. class room work, 20 min. track time, 20 min. break, 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM, Saturday and Sunday. I ran the car so hard the left front tire moved 1/2" on the wheel![:0] With the instructor on board giving me "pointers" and forcing me to really "push" the car deeper into the turns, we did find the limits of the tires, but never found the limits of the brakes, ie, no fade or pull. Adjustable brake proportioning valve really works wonders under those conditions. As a side note, my instructor was/is also an SDC member, and a former SCCA club racer. By Sunday afternoon, I was beat. You had to be there.

                              Dan Miller
                              Auburn, GA

                              [img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
                              Road Racers turn left AND right.

                              Comment

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