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  • Editorial - Brake Problems

    I am sure that a few out there will say that I should have guessed it from the begining, but I doubt most would.

    I had a local garage install my Turner Brake kit almost 8 months ago and it never worked right. I spent endless hours e-mailing various folks on the Forum and all had their own opinions. A local hot rodder came over and worked for two days on the brakes, and stated it was the "geometry" of Studebaker's brakes. One said that the crazy push rod to MC was the cause.

    So after shelling out nearly a thousand bucks to various local mechanics who could not get my brakes to stop locking up and keeping us from driving no more than 2 miles at a time I asked Jim Turner if he could fly in and help us. Each so called mechanic said it was his system and Studebaker's crazy brake system was at fault.

    Jim arrived at HPN (White Plains Airport) after a four hour set of flights from Indiana and we drove to my house. We took the Hawk out,for a ride and Jim said he could smell burning within 5 miles. We limped home and the brakes, rims and tires were too hot to touch.

    We jacked up the car, and Jim pulled the BRAND NEW- NOT REBUILT Bendix MC and all the brake lines. He then installed a Mitsibushi Eclipse MC that Bob Johnstone recommends on his tech pages and then ran new lines, this after we went on a hunt for more brake lines. At 7:30 we called it quits, and had dinner and sat around while the brake fluid gravity bled.

    Thursday morning he bled and bled and bled the entire brake system. We then took it out for a 5 mile ride, no pedal change, no brake smell, no brake lights staying on. Came home, had some lunch and then went on a 30 mile road trip. Totally unevetfull. No lock up, no problems. Cause of all this grief for the last 6 months was a defective NEW master cylinder. Why NOBODY could even posibly suspect the MC is beyond me.

    What has me most upset is none of these so called mechanics would even consider that a master cylinder could be defective but blamed the manufacturer of the brake system.

    Thursday night with enough confidence in the car/brakes, we lead Jim to the hotel we boked for him, and lent him the Navigator so he could come and go at will. The Hawk was driven at NIGHT, on I-95 and at speed and we came home as if we had used one of our regular cars.

    The cost of air fare and hotel for three nights is the best investment we ever made. I can't thank Jim enough for taking the time out to travel half way across the US to help me.

    There was nothing wrong with any of the Turner System, just idiot mechaincs, and folks who think they know what to blame.

  • #2
    Odd, the symptoms would point right to the master cylinder, or push rod adjustment. I'm shocked no one but Jim checked that first.

    JDP/Maryland
    JDP Maryland

    Comment


    • #3
      Gotta love vendor service like that! [8D]

      Good on ya Jim, for going through all the trouble! [)] And I'm glad to hear that the HFH is back up to snuff. [^]

      Matthew Burnette
      Hazlehurst, GA


      Comment


      • #4
        I wonder if Mr. Turner took any pics of the setup, as I'll likely be doing a similar conversion as soon as I have my drivetrain all sorted out... I've got the bracket and MC already just waiting to go on...

        nate

        --
        55 Commander Starlight
        http://members.cox.net/njnagel
        --
        55 Commander Starlight
        http://members.cox.net/njnagel

        Comment


        • #5
          Well, It was really not the pedal to rod adjustment, that was fine, There is/was a problem inside the M/C not allowing the release port to uncover. So, as Bill stated, we swapped out the M/C Wedneasday night, and filled her with fluid. Let her :gravity bleed" overnight. Thursday we bled them 4-5 times at each corner. But chunks of air came out on the right rear, at about the time Billy said WOW! I now have a pedal!
          As Bill said we went on a good drive, maybe30-35 miles, (mind you, they have been locking up after about 8 miles) we stopped a couple times to "adjust" the linkage rod, and Bill was like a kid with a new toy!! Continued to drive it for probably another 30+ miles and came back to the "Glass palatial estate home" (they are neighbors the slick willie and hillary) BOSEG
          Since I had completely lost my sense of direction in Wheschester County, I was totally LOST! But, the time was well worth it to resolve a problem that the "experts" were telling Billy, that my parts were the problem. They were'nt, it was a NEW Raybestes M/C.

          But as I left the calm airport at White Pines this morning, all I could hear Billy yelling "I GOT BRAKES"

          It was a GREAT few days, and got Billys problem resolved, and he's a happy camper! PLUS, I gotta say, Both Billy and I looked good in that Packard Power 56 Golden Hawk going down the road!

          Thanks
          Bill & Ellen


          Jim
          "We can't all be Heroes, Some us just need to stand on the curb and clap as they go by" Will Rogers

          We will provide the curb for you to stand on and clap!


          Indy Honor Flight www.IndyHonorFlight.org

          As of Veterans Day 2017, IHF has flown 2,450 WWII, Korean, and Vietnam Veterans to Washington DC at NO charge! to see
          their Memorials!

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          • #6
            quote:Originally posted by N8N

            I wonder if Mr. Turner took any pics of the setup, as I'll likely be doing a similar conversion as soon as I have my drivetrain all sorted out...
            I will have photos up sometime Sunday. Both from the the top and bottom plus the mounting of the Mitsibushi reservoir.

            I GOT BRAKES, that is the new name of Westchester County Airport. No more HPN, the official designation is IGB

            Comment


            • #7
              quote:Originally posted by JDP

              Odd, the symptoms would point right to the master cylinder, or push rod adjustment. I'm shocked no one but Jim checked that first.

              JDP/Maryland
              So are a few others. It was a Brand New bench Bled, with residual valves removed.

              BG

              Comment


              • #8
                That is odd- my experience over the years is to definitely NOT rule out any m/c- rebuilt or new! I've seen MANY defective- in fact, m/cs are one of those things we think of as a crap shoot every time we buy one...

                It really annoys me to hear somebody blame Jim's kit or original design; what was their response when you replied that there are hundreds of these kits- and tens of thousands of "crazy Studebaker" systems in use already without problems??

                Reminds me of arrogant, know-it-all doctors who encounter a tricky illness and, rather than admit they don't know what's going on and invite consultation, throw out an incorrect diagnosis and refuse to hear any other possibilities[}]



                Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
                Parish, central NY 13131

                "Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

                "With your Lark you're on your own, free as a bird, alive as a Lark. You've suddenly discovered that happiness is a thing called Larking!"



                Comment


                • #9
                  Here is a photo showing the Mitsibushi Eclipse (with ABS) one inch bore MC installed in the Hawk.

                  If you decide to do this installation you will need to either grind down your existing push rod that was used with the Studebaker MC and which you would use with one of the recommended MC's in Jims instruction sheet. I ordered my new one from SASCO and it took about 10 min to grind it down to the rwquired length. The original rod will be too long and impossible to install.


                  You will need a brake fluid reservoir and I purchased a used Eclipse MC with reservoir on E-bat for $2.00 plus shipping. You will need to retain the plastic clip that holds down the fluid lines. I mounted the reservoir to the battery hold down frame as there was no room on the fire wall and the brake fluid lines can be kept away from the exhaust system when positioned this way. For mor information about this set up visit Bob Johnstone's web site, as he goes into dept on the vaious master cylinders that can be used. The best part of the Eclipse MC is that it firs without any cutting or forcing into place.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    quote:Originally posted by bams50


                    It really annoys me to hear somebody blame Jim's kit or original design; what was their response when you replied that there are hundreds of these kits- and tens of thousands of "crazy Studebaker" systems in use already without problems??
                    Let me clarify s few points. According to the Turner Instructions is specifically states which MC's to use in the installation. One caveat is that REBUILT versions of this MC has a cover that is way too hight to clear the floor, and ONLY NEWLY manufactured MC's by this company come with the lower Flat Top. When I bought the MC that turned out to be the "culpert" the instruction sheet specifically said to "bench Bleed" the MC before installation, otherwise it would not work correctly. I did have it bench bled and I installed it myself. When the brakes started to lock up, I e-mailed a number of knowledgable folks on this Forum. Nobody on this Forum mentioned anything about it being a possibility that the MC would/could be at fault.

                    Even Jim initially thought it might be a combination of the 2 lb check valve being defective and he sent me a new one, along with new claipers. HOWEVER, this was all done by phone and e-mail and the assumption of a defective MC never reared it's ugly head. I blame myself for someof this as my knowledge or the ability to communicate what was happening might not have been enough for him to work with.

                    Once I brought in the "experts" from the area, they all did what you would expect they would do. Re-Bleed the brakes, try to adjust the push rod, check pedal travel etc. Freddy even tried to keep the push rod so that it was barely touching the MC.

                    We used the brake lights to determine the 3/8 ths free play, and yet after 3 to 5 miles they locked up.

                    To answer the main part of your question, what happened when I said that there were hundreds if not close to a thousand of these kits in use daily, all they could say was what I stated before.

                    In retrospect, I figure that everyone was confused and since I cannot figure out how to tell a MC would be defective if it was successfully bench bled, they only option would be to blame the after market system.

                    However, this is now all in the past, and Jim nailed it, and that is all that really counts.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      One underlying fault here is that this is a Studebaker. And while there's NOTHING wrong WITH the Studebaker, it's just the fact that it IS ONE - and THAT sets the tone of alot of "mechanics" (like 99.9% of them) that might work on it.[8]
                      In most folks eyes, this car is WEIRD! Hey, they went belly up, didn't they???[xx(] So toss conventional whiz-dumb out the window and let's blame it on the bizarro engineering that doomed these cars years ago!

                      Glad there's a happy ending here. Jim, you're a prince.... well, so's Bondo.[^] BTW Bondo - ever get the gas tank situation ironed out?

                      Miscreant Studebaker nut in California's central valley.

                      1957 Transtar 1/2ton
                      1960 Larkvertible V8
                      1958 Provincial wagon
                      1953 Commander coupe
                      1957 President two door

                      No deceptive flags to prove I'm patriotic - no biblical BS to impress - just ME and Studebakers - as it should be.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Reminds me of the hell I went through with my '93 Camaro Z28 when it
                        suddenly started having a hesitation problem. The Dealership wanted
                        to blame the JET chip that I had in the car for years. They refused
                        to work on it until I removed it. So I pulled the computer out took
                        out the chip and reinstalled it. Didnt solve the problem. Turned out
                        to be the high performance Accel coil installed a month before went
                        bonkers. Took another Dealership to figure that out.

                        I could sware I answered a post about this a while back asking if the
                        master had any residual check valve in it. Sure sounds like a master
                        problem, for the cost of them I am surprised no one just swapped it.[:I]
                        Hind sight is always 20/20 though. I dont use Accel anymore.

                        Tom

                        '63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires
                        '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                        Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                        http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                        I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

                          BTW Bondo - ever get the gas tank situation ironed out?
                          We are working on it. Very interesting story. When Jim was here he looked at the sending unit you sent and we compared it to the 56J sending unit. Jime thinks your sending unit is actually a 56 based on th size of the outlet. On the other hand I won a NOS 57GH sending unit on E-bay last week for $35.50. Guy had 4 and did a dutch auction. His buddy said to sell them individually and start the bidding at $100 each. We have one more issue to overcome then the gas tank goes in. Car should be worn out by fall now that it is roadworthy. Now I can close up the hole in the floor and install the Phantom carpeting. The brakes were preventing that.

                          IGB

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            quote:Originally posted by sbca96

                            I could sware I answered a post about this a while back asking if the
                            master had any residual check valve in it. Sure sounds like a master
                            problem, for the cost of them I am surprised no one just swapped it.[:I]
                            Hind sight is always 20/20 though. I dont use Accel anymore.

                            Tom
                            Before instaing the bad MC, I ahd pulled the check valves out. ask Bob Johnstone about me being the KING of 6/32 self tapping screws. Could not find any at any hardware store so I had to buy a box of 100. Then following Bob's instructions, I needed a pry bar and had to file the ends. Bob accused m of buying used files.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've had the same probem with a Turner system on a 55 stude. Brakes locking up. We put a new mc on, no change. Went thru the brake lines, residual valves, check valves, you name it. Still same problem. I will re-visit that one.
                              I just did a front disc brake conversion on a 57 HK using the mitsu mc concept on Bob Johnson's site, http://www.studebaker-info.org/rjtechx3.html , but I used a tilton 1" bore mc I had on hand. I also changed the pedal to a non power booster type as the pedal ratio is different between the two and this car used to have a hydrovac unit. All new brake lines, new front disc brakes and new rear drum brakes. Owner is very pleased with the results.
                              64 Champ long bed V8
                              55/53 Studebaker President S/R
                              53 Hudson Super Wasp Coupe

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