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Heel+Toe shifting in a Studebaker? RoadRaceLark?

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  • Heel+Toe shifting in a Studebaker? RoadRaceLark?

    Hey Dan (and others), from what I can see in my Avanti, its not really
    possible to "heel+toe" a Studebaker. Are the pedals in the same place
    on the Lark? Did you do anything to help you downshift? I was doing
    some checking and it looks like the gas pedal could be moved over to
    be closer to the brake, but then the height has to be right also! Has
    this been done by anyone? Just curious. I am a long way off from it
    benfitting me, but the topic came up with a friend of mine, and he was
    demonstrating on his wifes Jetta. Here is a video showing "heel+toe".

    http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c...db3f41d4d1.htm

    Tom

    '63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires
    '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
    Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
    I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

  • #2
    Having driven my '62 Lark enough to have tried this I think the only solution would be relocating the stock pedal (perhaps moving it towards the rear of the car by drilling new holes in the floor) and changing the length of the steel rod that goes between the pedal and bellcrank.

    The bottom hung pedal cars are no better; it's still a bit of a stretch.

    This is one place where my German cars definitely have a clear advantage over a Studebaker... I'm told that I can be identified by sound when picking people up at the Metro station or wherever, as a 944 has a distinctive exhaust sound to begin with and apparently I'm the only person (besides the few that i've personally taught how to drive a stick) who ever double clutches on public roads...

    nate

    --
    55 Commander Starlight
    http://members.cox.net/njnagel
    --
    55 Commander Starlight
    http://members.cox.net/njnagel

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    • #3
      quote:Originally posted by N8N

      [snip]

      apparently I'm the only person (besides the few that i've personally taught how to drive a stick) who ever double clutches on public roads...

      nate

      --
      55 Commander Starlight
      http://members.cox.net/njnagel
      You're not alone Nate. I still double clutch regularly, especially when downshifting (in the [perhaps mistaken] belief that it'll make the snychros last longer).

      Skip Lackie
      Washington DC
      Skip Lackie

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      • #4
        In my case, it was because I was a CAVO (very similar to a CASO) who had a thrashed second gear synchro in my daily driver GTI and never bothered to rebuild the trans because, hey, everything else worked fine, you just couldn't downshift into second unless you knew how to rev-match, which was fine by me (cut down on the number of people asking to borrow my car...)

        I drove the car like that for a good 2-3 years until the alternator died and I ended up selling it and buying a Scirocco to replace it (with all five gears synchronized <G&gt It's been a habit ever since, I had the car long enough that it became a habit and it's one that I've never felt the need to break.

        nate

        --
        55 Commander Starlight
        http://members.cox.net/njnagel
        --
        55 Commander Starlight
        http://members.cox.net/njnagel

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        • #5
          My years of driving Formula Vee and Formula Ford in the late 70's/early 80's and actually driving a Lotus Elan with a straight cut gears in the box on the street as a daily driver (for a SHORT time)has left me with the habit of revmatching and/or double clutching every shift. Even in a Studebaker!

          You can't do a comfortable "heel n toe" quick shift in a Studebaker--the pedal layout is way too clumsy for that. But since MOST of us aren't road racing anyway . . .



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          • #6
            Well, he was showing me that even the Jetta wasnt laid out right, but
            yes it was definately better than the Avanti (I laughed when I saw how
            bad it was). It wasnt just the distance from the floor, but how far it
            was from the brake. To move it over, I would have to extend the arm
            on the bellcrank, which would result in the pedal haing to move further
            to have the same throttle result. I think that changing it to a GM-ish
            cable might be the solution. Has anyone done this?

            quote:Originally posted by N8N
            This is one place where my German cars definitely have a clear advantage over a Studebaker...
            True Allan, most of us arent, but I would like too. Thats my plan in
            the end result of this Avanti. If I dont get there, its not the end
            of the world, but its GOING to make it to a track - mark my words!

            quote:Originally posted by Allan Songer
            You can't do a comfortable "heel n toe" quick shift in a Studebaker--the pedal layout is way too clumsy for that. But since MOST of us aren't road racing anyway . . .
            I hope that Dan chimes in here also.

            Tom
            '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
            Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
            http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
            I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Tom,

              I know, "If you can't get here on time....just get here when you can" Sorry I didn't come on earlier....work
              At one point, earlier in my driving stages, I made a concerted effort to try to adapt to the "heel-&-toe" method, but quickly realized that with the Stude pedal lay out, Lark or Avanti, unless you were severly double-jointed, it's almost an impossibility.[V] That's not to say with some good engineering on the brake/accelerator pedal relationship, I feel it could be do-able, it would take a lot of trial and error. I also think the tranny tunnel is much closer to the accelerator and you'd need a size 5 foot to make it work.[:0] All said....for me, it wasn't worth the trouble. Besides, I'd still have trouble gettin' by Derek Bell anyway. HA!HA!HA!

              Let me know if you come up with anything. Thanks Tom. Hope your wife is doing better now.

              Dan Miller
              Atlanta, GA

              [img=left]http://static.flickr.com/57/228744729_7aff5f0118_m.jpg[/img=left]
              Road Racers turn left AND right.

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              • #8
                Way back when I had my 56 Chevy 210...I moved the pedals around in the car to be able to do this.

                The gas pedal came back and over a little and the clutch got moved closer to the brake pedal. The way I had the clutch located...I had to modify the brake to get it to the same height as the clutch because I like its location better than the stock location of the brake.

                While I haven't looked at the Avanti layout..it shouldn't be too difficult to get the pedals close AND comfortable. As Dan noted, they must be easy to reach and not have your knees banging on anything.

                Mike

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                • #9
                  I forgot to mention, when I put the 4-speed in my '55, I retained the automatic brake pedal pad and flipped it upside down so the long end was pointing towards the gas pedal. It helped, but not enough to actually make H&T easy for normal human feet.

                  nate

                  --
                  55 Commander Starlight
                  http://members.cox.net/njnagel
                  --
                  55 Commander Starlight
                  http://members.cox.net/njnagel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I would be curious if the German advantage would have been apparent in a '55 or '62 model year car? The Porsche probably...the VW? Just a point to ponder.
                    Mono mind in a stereo world

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'd actually say yes, as they were designed by the same person. However, I've never driven an aircooled VW (save for a 914, if you count that) so I can't speak from personal experience.

                      The 914, and I would assume the 911 as well as it uses some of the same parts, has a thoroughly wonderful pedal layout, quite possibly the best I've ever driven, with Stude-style bottom hinged pedals. Even better than the suspended-pedal 944 IMHO.

                      nate

                      --
                      55 Commander Starlight
                      http://members.cox.net/njnagel
                      --
                      55 Commander Starlight
                      http://members.cox.net/njnagel

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Dan, I had the Mustang guys and my buddy with the 68 Camaro
                        road race car look at the Avanti pedals. They say the clutch and the
                        brake are too close and the gas is too far back and over. Basically
                        I am SOL. They seem to agree that moving the brake to the right about
                        an inch, and adapting a GM style swinging gas pedal would help a lot.

                        Tom
                        '63 Avanti R1, '03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves.
                        Check out my disc brake adapters to install 1994-2004 Mustang disc brakes on your Studebaker!!
                        http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...bracket-update
                        I have also written many TECH how to articles, do a search for my Forum name to find them

                        Comment

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