'Gotta hand it to Ford...

[Bob Andrews]

Thought I would share this video of the aluminum F-150 release, filmed right here in Oswego. The confetti scene is at Harborfest, which is where I first saw the truck.http://vimeo.com/110480180

[SN-60]

There's nothing wrong with brazing! Like any other technique, it can be done poorly but if the parts are fitted correctly it can make for an immensely strong joint and when joining dis-similar metals or Chrome-Moly. At one time, brazing was by far and away the prefered method for Chrome-Moly. I have worked on scores of Rickman racing frames as well as others, I've never seen a joint on any of these fail. The same goes for silver-solder.

Well, brazing does have its place, but I really can't see them brazing the steel gun turrets of the old battleships together!!!!

[t walgamuth]

Great photos Plain Brown, but we're actually discussing aluminum body shells on this thread...not exterior bus 'skins', or military vehicles!

Dunno about the military vehicles but many of those old busses were aluminum monocoques. When in college I drove a GMC 5103( not sure of the model number) with a Jimmy 671 diesel and Allison two speed out back. Quite an impressive design for 1945 or so.

[t walgamuth]

There's nothing wrong with brazing! Like any other technique, it can be done poorly but if the parts are fitted correctly it can make for an immensely strong joint and when joining dis-similar metals or Chrome-Moly. At one time, brazing was by far and away the prefered method for Chrome-Moly. I have worked on scores of Rickman racing frames as well as others, I've never seen a joint on any of these fail. The same goes for silver-solder.

I wondered about this. Unser probably knew this but it would not surprise if he played it up to psych his competitors.

[8E45E]

The only bus I saw inside Disneyland was a replica of a Brass-era double decker bus.

Exactly what I was thinking, too, Evan; not unlike the buses here at Heritage Park that are designed to mimic an early 1900's trolley car, which of course is NOT your typical highway bus.

And I would suspect the outside parking lot would be FULL of Anaheim Transit and other tour buses from all over the continent which John and myself are referring to.

Craig

[fargoguy]

I've never been to Disneyland, so I have no idea what the buses in there look like. You'll have to post a picture of one for me. I can only go by the buses that I am familiar with.

Craig

The only bus I saw inside Disneyland was a replica of a Brass-era double decker bus. Outside of Disneyland in the transportation area there were tons of Anaheim city buses though. Maybe someone can clarify?

[8E45E]

Maybe buses in Disneyland!

I've never been to Disneyland, so I have no idea what the buses in there look like. You'll have to post a picture of one for me. I can only go by the buses that I am familiar with.

Craig

[PlainBrownR2]

Hey look at that, I did have a couple decent photos of a Hummvee/Hummer, and one of them in the lighter Desert colors too! They really do bolt, screw, and rivet their military equipment together too! I mean, go figure, it's gotta be basic for battlefield operations, and it's industrial machinery at this point after all!



The second one was taken at the car show and chicken dinner here in Lisbon, IL earlier this year.

[PlainBrownR2]

Great photos Plain Brown, but we're actually discussing aluminum body shells on this thread...not exterior bus 'skins', or military vehicles!

Oh, we're gonna do it that way huh. Well alright .......

Earlier in the thread it was.........

Originally Posted by studegary
The bodies on the original Humvees and Hummers were rivited and glued together.



I remember folks using pop rivets and calling it "SPACE AGE WELDING"!!!....I'm not buying it Gary!

And then it was...........

Originally Posted by 8E45E
Not to mention, buses of all kinds. I've seen city transit, Greyhound, and other intercity coaches with over half a million miles on them, and their bodies are still holding together as good as the day they were built.

Craig



Maybe buses in Disneyland! This type of thinking reminds me of the 1964 4WD Ferguson Novi race car. The steel chassis was brazed together instead of being electrically welded. Excepting for Bobby Unser, the other Studebaker/Novi drivers passed on driving this unusual car because of the way the chassis was made. Bobby Unser is a BRAVE MAN!

So to prove the point that bus and military bodies are riveted, I post my pictures to dispel that they are not. Many of those commercial vehicles are rather large, and since commercial vehicles do a better job making money when they're running than when they're all apart, the body parts are affixed with rivets, screws, nuts, or bolts, than being welded. But, then somehow the conversation became.........

Great photos Plain Brown, but we're actually discussing aluminum body shells on this thread...not exterior bus 'skins', or military vehicles!

Which tells me that you hate to see the proof in front you, or you'd do better to stray off point and make a better politician, or all of the above!

I dunno if anybody else has worked on them, or been around them, but frankly, I see a whole lotta riveted body shells, chassis, and skins in those images, so I'm gonna go with my gut, and say that this is common practice in the larger vehicles. BTW, I didn't know HMMWV(Hummvees) were not military vehicles, which is what you were decrying, so I'm guessing after all this time, we're still using Jeeps then? Nonetheless, for the specs of the "military" Hummvee, and the H1, here they are, the specs for the body are at the top of page on this here link. The body for this "civilian" HMMWV and the civilian H1 vehicle uses 2800 rivets and is made from T6 aluminum.

http://www.amgeneral.com/vehicles/hummer/compare.php

[spokejr]

This article makes a good point...And that is: Ford's use of rivets and glue to join two pieces of metal that in reality should be welded for permanent strength.....

Actually, that's not what the article says. It points out that there is more than one opinion as to how to skin this cat. Which also makes this turn of events rather exciting. As aluminum takes a bigger place at the table (so to speak) what will prove to be the best solution?

Ultimately, different joints in different places will warrant different solutions. Weld isn't the alpha & omega for either steel or aluminum and even then, what type of welding? I used to be very sceptical of bonding, scores of fighter wings are out there exceeding the speed of sound with nary a skin peeling off. It worked pretty good holding the aluminum superstructure of the SS United States to the steel hull. I could very well be wrong but I seem to remember reading that bonding was used to reduce the chance of galvanic corrosion.

[spokejr]

Maybe buses in Disneyland! This type of thinking reminds me of the 1964 4WD Ferguson Novi race car. The steel chassis was brazed together instead of being electrically welded. Excepting for Bobby Unser, the other Studebaker/Novi drivers passed on driving this unusual car because of the way the chassis was made. Bobby Unser is a BRAVE MAN!

There's nothing wrong with brazing! Like any other technique, it can be done poorly but if the parts are fitted correctly it can make for an immensely strong joint and when joining dis-similar metals or Chrome-Moly. At one time, brazing was by far and away the prefered method for Chrome-Moly. I have worked on scores of Rickman racing frames as well as others, I've never seen a joint on any of these fail. The same goes for silver-solder.

[SN-60]

Great photos Plain Brown, but we're actually discussing aluminum body shells on this thread...not exterior bus 'skins', or military vehicles!

[PlainBrownR2]

Well, just be obnoxious, I've been around the older buses, trucks, and military vehicles for quite a few years now. There's a couple groups of vintage commercial, military, and truck associations that come out to the Illinois Railway Museum's Transportation Extravaganza every year, and they must all be doing it wrong then, because most of them are all riveted. There's good reason too. One of them is because they're built for work, aesthetics aren't as important. Another is because they are built for making money, and they're rather large, the bodies are riveted not only for ease of maintenance, but also because they have to flex. There's nothing worse than having to bring a bus back into a shop after a fender bender, and having to go through the drawn out process of breaking out the welder and stitch the body panel back up, so they just skin them with aluminum body panels, and rivet them together like a giant container. But, just to be nice and prove my point with commercial vehicles, I have a few photos of various buses over the years with these shoddily designed riveted bodies!

Riveted........




Riveted........



Riveted........



Riveted........



Riveted........



Yep.......



Of course........



Right on........


No doubt........



Looky there.........



Yes......



Yes.........



Even the military vehicles, including the Hummvee's. I can't find a decent picture of one that I took, but the AM General website has them listed as aluminum bodied and riveted together. That's for the flexiblity, and I guessing, ease of maintenance, which is important in battlefield conditions. The bodies also have to flex, and be built to standards different than an automobile's, because many of these vehicles are used very hard and offroad...ALOT!


Riveted........


Welded.....nope, just kidding, riveted!



......and if they really are built for just Disneyland, Disney must really love Pegleg Pete, because I can't imagine Mickey being behind the wheel of a few of them!

[Warren Webb]

About 8 years ago I was in a shop for a short time that had a Mercedes come in. It had been hit in the rear & it's rear body panel was riveted, requiring special rivets & the shop doing the work had to be certified by Mercedes. The owner looked into having it sublet to a certified shop but ended up loosing the job. The handwriting is on the wall. Shops will have to keep pace with requirements or close.

[SN-60]

Not to mention, buses of all kinds. I've seen city transit, Greyhound, and other intercity coaches with over half a million miles on them, and their bodies are still holding together as good as the day they were built.

Craig

Maybe buses in Disneyland! This type of thinking reminds me of the 1964 4WD Ferguson Novi race car. The steel chassis was brazed together instead of being electrically welded. Excepting for Bobby Unser, the other Studebaker/Novi drivers passed on driving this unusual car because of the way the chassis was made. Bobby Unser is a BRAVE MAN!