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  • Fed up with ethanol ??

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1218...n_commentaries

    Great idea, use tax money to subsidize ethanol, then drive up food prices too, a double hit in the wallet.

    JDP/Maryland
    "I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it."
    Thomas Jefferson

  • #2
    Hey, this is serious business: Corn Chex is my favorite cereal![:0] BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Exactly.

      Here's the line that really made me shake my head:

      As we can see now, the diversion of our corn supply from grocery stores to gasoline pumps has caused the price of corn to spiral out of control.

      As we can see now?? A lot of us could see that right along. I'm stuck in the middle of it here; we've got a Miller Brewing plant that closed about 15 years ago, and has been mostly vacant since. A few years ago it was announced that a company was going to turn it into an ethanol plant. The locals, so hungry for the magical unskilled high paying factory jobs that were there when Miller was here, are all going ga-ga over it, and are absolutely immune to the facts of the ethanol myth. None of the downside is ever allowed into the discussion, not even the fact that it cannot be a feasible fuel without taxpayer subsidy[}]

      The solutions are all there, and plainly obvious. I'm choosing to keep the faith that thinking, non-agenda driven Americans will somehow be able to overcome the insanity eventually. That the WSJ has run this story might be a sign that we're slowly starting to head that way.

      Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
      Parish, central NY 13131

      "Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

      "It was the last chance for Studebaker to turn things around. The company was down to its last bullet, and this new small car was it. They called it the Lark"



      Comment


      • #4
        First off, I gotta admit I am proud of my Governor for taking the stand he has to lessen the pitfalls of the dilemma of grain/crop for food or fuel. I have heard a lot from the two-coastal, big city media and so-called experts about how ethanol has not/does not/and will not affect the price of food. I'm sorry, but that's just BS. Every acre of corn grown that goes for fuel does NOT go for livestock feed, human food, and food additives. Every bushel of corn used for ethanol DOES lessen the amount used to create or become food for those in big cities to eat, therefore, according to supply and demand, it does increase the price of ALL livestock foods and related products. And the livestock product itself. That includes things made from unedible parts also. (shoes and belts). According to Bruce Bullock, Director of Southern Methodist University's Maguire Institute of Energy "It's a business model that I think is destined, unltimately, to failure.".

        Other crop sources? Sounds good, but still won't work. When farmers find new farmland and/or grow fuel from new acres, they contribute to the very greenhouse gas problems ethanol was meant to solve. If farmers shift existing acreage into crops for biofuels, they will trim the global food and fiber supply. Congress cut price incentives in the last farm bill for ethanol made from corn (for you non-farmers, read that as farmers will now make LESS for growing fuel corn used for ethanol making ethanol cost more) and now offers more than double the benefit to produce the alternative fuel from stock that can't be used for food. The farmers will now grow more of those alternative fuel crops further reducing the acreage available for food grains and corn. From Bruce Babcock, Director of Iowa State University's Center for Agricultural and Rural Development, "There may be some disagreement about the magnitude of the impact on food prices from biofuels, but there is no disagreement that there is an impact.".

        As long as Americans choose to maintain the current level of energy useage, they must also accept the higher cost of commodities due to diversifying a static level of supply.

        What there is NOT enough of is positive discussion about is the development of non-cellulosic fuels -- nuclear, wind, and solar. Along with these "Big Three", there is still a lot of potential in cellulosic ethanol made with non-food and non-food-acreage fuels, such as algae, crop waste, and sawgrass.


        '50 Champion, 1 family owner

        Comment


        • #5
          I think you're right about the alternatives; they haven't been worked through yet. But once again the market will work- these things will continue to evolve to the point that they become viable, at which point people will want them, and someone will fill the demand. None of them are near that yet, but progress is being made!

          The disagreement out there seems to be what to do in the short term, until alternatives are ready for wide-spread use.

          Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
          Parish, central NY 13131

          "Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

          "It was the last chance for Studebaker to turn things around. The company was down to its last bullet, and this new small car was it. They called it the Lark"



          Comment


          • #6
            quote:Originally posted by BobGlasscock


            What there is NOT enough of is positive discussion about is the development of non-cellulosic fuels -- nuclear, wind, and solar.

            Along with these "Big Three", there is still a lot of potential in cellulosic ethanol made with non-food and non-food-acreage fuels, such as algae, crop waste, and sawgrass.


            I totally agree with this, Bob.

            Here's another country's response to the energy crisis of the 70's and what an actual energy policy could do for us...

            http://tinyurl.com/6jz23m

            To your second point, I was in Eastern Washington a few weeks ago. MOST farmers there are in the "not raising wheat" business. Just think how much land nationwide COULD be growing non-food bio fuel crops like sawgrass and rapeseed.

            In addition, I think we are the ONLY country that makes biofuels out of food crops (soy beans and corn). We CAN'T be as stupid as we seem [V]





            Dick Steinkamp
            Bellingham, WA



            Dick Steinkamp
            Bellingham, WA

            Comment


            • #7
              WOW! How dumb am I?? Here I was, just sitting around daydreaming about this thread and the crop situation and I wondered, how much acreage is 'wasted' in the square corners of a pivot irrigation crop? Geez, and I live here and hadn't thought of this before. DUH!!

              oh, ok, enough self-depricating sarcasm.

              One section of land = 640 acres.
              One circle crop on that section = 502 acres.
              Corners = 138 acres.
              That equals about 21% of that section could be in non-food fuel source.

              Boy, that wore me out. Time for ice cream and bed.

              '50 Champion, 1 family owner

              Comment


              • #8
                Tonight's news, no joke. Some chemsits and biologists have mutated the E-coli bacteria, throw basicaly anything that grows in with these non infectious E-coli, and a few days later you have diesel fuel.

                Comment


                • #9
                  quote:
                  Tonight's news, no joke. Some chemsits and biologists have mutated the E-coli bacteria, throw basicaly anything that grows in with these non infectious E-coli, and a few days later you have diesel fuel.
                  Yep, although for me the new is a few months old now. I'm not sure how the Germans managed synthetic oil, but the procedure isn't anything new. This is how alot of products(including insulin for yours truly) come about. Basically the bacteria's genetic structure, that is basically a ring of DNA, is broken down and reassembled with instructions to produce X product. The bacteria is allowed to grow on a medium and then the "pure" specimens are extracted and put on a new medium. From here they are allowed to grow, of which the product is then pulled from this medium for whatever use(in this case diesel) for the widespread masses. No muss, no fuss, no starving children to worry about, and plus, this bacteria is found everyyyywherrreeee .


                  [img=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201950%202r5%20Studebaker%20Pickup%20with%20turbocharger/P1000137-1.jpg[/img=left]
                  [img=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/DSC00005.jpg?t=1171153370[/img=right]
                  [IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
                  1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                  1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                  1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                  1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    quote:Originally posted by bams50

                    But once again the market will work-
                    I wish I had your optimism, Bams. I have GREAT faith in free, open markets - unfortunately, we don't have any of those. Instead of letting the marketplace come up with a moneymaking solution to the problem, our meddling Government simply must make the decision by executive fiat, subsidizing their choice and skewing/distorting natural market forces in the process.

                    The market I trust to come up with a solution. Our legislators, not so much.


                    [img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

                    Clark in San Diego
                    '63 F2/Lark Standard
                    http://studeblogger.blogspot.com
                    www.studebakersandiego.com

                    Clark in San Diego | '63 Standard (F2) "Barney" | http://studeblogger.blogspot.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Clark, I think the people's will is starting to create the pressure to move our inept Congress; witness the current conflict within their ranks, trying to force a simple up/down vote on drilling. Whatever side one is on of that issue, anyone can see how wrong the current majority is for not doing so.

                      Of course, time will tell, but I honestly do see reason to be optimistic!

                      Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
                      Parish, central NY 13131

                      "Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

                      "It was the last chance for Studebaker to turn things around. The company was down to its last bullet, and this new small car was it. They called it the Lark"



                      Comment


                      • #12
                        quote:Originally posted by showbizkid

                        quote:Originally posted by bams50

                        But once again the market will work-
                        I wish I had your optimism, Bams. I have GREAT faith in free, open markets - unfortunately, we don't have any of those. Instead of letting the marketplace come up with a moneymaking solution to the problem, our meddling Government simply must make the decision by executive fiat, subsidizing their choice and skewing/distorting natural market forces in the process.

                        The market I trust to come up with a solution. Our legislators, not so much.
                        Well stated, you guys. This is an interesting thread. [8D]BP
                        We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                        Ayn Rand:
                        "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                        G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          quote:Originally posted by Studedude

                          quote:What there is NOT enough of is positive discussion about is the development of non-cellulosic fuels -- nuclear, wind, and solar.
                          I thought T Boone's commercials were running nation wide. Silly me![8]



                          DAVE, THE EVIL TWIN FROM OKLAHOMA
                          If they're not nationwide, they ought to be! Unfortunately, too many people see him ONLY as an oil man and therefore have a prejudicial detest for him. He is very smart, and this time he is on the right track.



                          '50 Champion, 1 family owner

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My rant on E-85. First, I will say that my '01 Ranger runs on E-85 or gasoline. It's a flex fuel vehicle. I have never run E-85 in it based on the cost of doing so. When I lived in Michigan, I was 15 miles from the closest E-85 pump. Here in Florida, I'm about 70 miles away. The cost in terms of fuel economy is about 20-25% decrease in fuel economy. And at the pump, the savings are only 10%. This means that I'd be losing 15% using this stuff.

                            The State of Florida in it's wisdom, has mandated that gasoline contain 10% ethanol. This has cut my fuel economy 10% (approximately 2 MPG's). And because it costs MORE to make this crap, I don't see any discount at the pump. The Governor stands up, thumps his chest and says the the new gas burns cleaner and creates less polution. Except this hasn't been a problem here in the Sunshine State.

                            The government increases the CAFE law (which will cause the Big 3 to spend money it doesn't have) while tying their hands with ethanol (decreasing the ability to hit this target).

                            I agree wind and solar power has been under valued here in the US. These ways of generating electricity need to be looked at. The cost of ethanol to power our vehicles is higher than that of gasoline. Hybrids still need batteries that will (sooner or later) create the cost of battery disposal issues. Letting our government lead the way on setting policy, based on what we've all seen over the last 30 years is not comforting.



                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Tom - Mulberry, FL

                            1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

                            Tom - Bradenton, FL

                            1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
                            1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm glad to see this subject get some knowledgeable attention in the press. It's hard to swallow, but maybe $4 gas and the rising price of food will be worth it in the end. Back in the 1990s, I was writing occasional articles for TW about the effects of reformulated gas on old cars, so I was scouring the scientific press and the EPA Website for the latest developments. Even then, there were articles in peer-reviewed journals examining the economics of ethanol in gasoline. The consensus was that the benefits of adding corn-based ethanol to gas to reduce oil imports were marginal at best, and negative at worst. In essence, because ethanol reduces gas mileage and requires the use of a lot of fossil fuels to produce (fertilizer, tractor fuel, and fuel for the plant itself), adding it to gas was a net loss -- especially if you included "marginal" oil consumption by the farmer's family, the cost of building the ethanol plants, the tankers used to haul it, etc. In effect, it was/is a subsidy for corn farmers and a jobs program for towns with ethanol plants, trucking companies, tractor/trailer and farm equipment manufacturers, etc. Nothing wrong with that -- if that's what the country has decided to do with its tax money. But it wasn't being sold that way. Farming is a tough way to make a living, and I wish them the best -- but I despair at our ability to delude ourselves by justifying outright subsides by calling them something else.

                              Without wishing to engage in partisan politics, it's a fact that you can't win state-wide in Florida without pandering to the Cuban-American community, or in Michigan without pandering to the labor unions, or in most Midwest states without pandering to the corn farmers. That's just the way it is.

                              Skip Lackie
                              Washington DC
                              Skip Lackie

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