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Yes, No, Maybe So. Making one thing out of another thing can be much more expensive and energy intensive than just using the thing itself in the natural state. We'll wait for much more detailed information.
Think about hydrogen as a fuel. It burns completely clean. Problem is, today making hydrogen is expensive, complex, uses a lot more energy than it gives back. For an assumed import price of $3/kg of hydrogen, power produced from hydrogen turbines could cost about $140/MWh. In comparison, unsubsidized natural gas combined cycle generation today costs approximately $50/MWh.
Thus far, politicians do not yet believe voters are willing to pay three times as much for their electricity to have cleaner air and slow climate change. It may happen, just not as quickly as it needs to.
jack vinesPackardV8
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Originally posted by PackardV8 View PostYes, No, Maybe So. Making one thing out of another thing can be much more expensive and energy intensive than just using the thing itself in the natural state. We'll wait for much more detailed information.
Think about hydrogen as a fuel. It burns completely clean. Problem is, today making hydrogen is expensive, complex, uses a lot more energy than it gives back. For an assumed import price of $3/kg of hydrogen, power produced from hydrogen turbines could cost about $140/MWh. In comparison, unsubsidized natural gas combined cycle generation today costs approximately $50/MWh.
Thus far, politicians do not yet believe voters are willing to pay three times as much for their electricity to have cleaner air and slow climate change. It may happen, just not as quickly as it needs to.
jack vinesDick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA
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Originally posted by skyway View PostTitle sounds like shades of WW2?Gary L.
Wappinger, NY
SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer
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Originally posted by PackardV8 View PostThus far, politicians do not yet believe voters are willing to pay three times as much for their electricity to have cleaner air and slow climate change. It may happen, just not as quickly as it needs to.
jack vines
"All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory
Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
'33 Rockne 10,
'51 Commander Starlight,
'53 Commander Starlight "Désirée",
'56 Sky Hawk
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Great! Once they work out all the fine points, perhaps they can team up with Dollar General Stores for distribution points. That way, they can have a fuel station for about every street corner in the nation!
As in the spirit of, “there’s no such thing as a Free Lunch,” for every sincere person seeking honest progress...there are probably 10 con men seeking to exploit. Let’s pray and hope true solutions to clean fuel are developed so that the Fun Police don’t make us all equally miserable.John Clary
Greer, SC
SDC member since 1975
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Originally posted by rockne10 View PostFortunately, that 3x figure is no longer accurate. The cost of electricity from renewable sources has dropped precipitately; even below traditional sources in some markets.
Hydropower has always been an inexpensive source of electrical generation; but here in the northwest, there are those who want to remove some dams to restore wild salmon runs.
Wind energy is 7% of total U.S. electricity generation. Without subsidies and requiring utilities to take all the power generated, even when it means forcing other sources off line, it wouldn't be as cost-competitive. Some studies follow a wind turbine from the polluting Chinese factory onto a fossil fuel train onto a fossil fuel ship onto a fossil fuel truck to a site graded by a fossil fuel dozer and a pad poured by a fossil fuel cement truck and erected by a crew driving fossil fuel vehicles. By those measurements, many wind turbines never pay back their carbon debt. And that there are millions of migrating birds lying dead at the base of those wind turbines is a cost not accounted for, just as the loss of salmon was not accounted for in low-cost hydropower.
Biomass was the source of about 1% of total U.S. electricity generation in 2019. Biomass is burned directly in steam-electric power plants, or it can be converted to a gas that can be burned in steam generators, gas turbines, or internal combustion engine generators.
Solar energy provided about 2% of total U.S. electricity in 2019.
Geothermal power plants produced about 0.5% of total U.S. electricity generation in 2019.
So today, renewables other than hydro produce only 10.5% of US electricity.
Coal, oil and natural gas have long term costs which in the past were never accounted for in the cost of the electricity they produce. But until these long term fossil fuel costs are added back in through higher rates, renewables are not as cost-competitive electrical generation as they could be.
jack vines
Last edited by PackardV8; 02-23-2021, 08:17 AM.PackardV8
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