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  • #46
    It's not impossible to tell the huge majority of cloned heads and short blocks. Real R3/4 rods and pistons are very hard to come by and easily inspected by dropping the oil pan. Most cloners won't go to the expense of changing the center to center of the valve guides and are easy to measure by pulling the rocker covers. Taking off the valve covers and the oil pan will filter out 99% of the fakes. There are some other tells, too. If you go that far, find what look like good parts, but still have that queasy feeling - run away. Sure, you're probably losing a real deal, but you'll always have that feeling and for me that means I would have to tell anybody wanting it from me.
    Jim
    Often in error, never in doubt
    http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

    ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

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    • #47
      Originally posted by studegary View Post
      I do not see much value in adding an ID tag stating a clone/replica/tribute engine. All a later owner has to do is remove the tag and it becomes an original engine.
      Sure the I.D. plate COULD be removed, but that certainly doesn't mean that it WOULD be removed. It's really a question of honesty......and I like to think that Studebaker fans are an honest group! The bottom line Gary, is that the engine builder himself would know that he tried to do the right thing as he waves goodbye to his newly created 'Tribute' R3-R4 engine.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by studegary View Post
        I have taken the time/effort to document all of the changes that I have made on a car, including year and model of various parts. Then I have gotten calls from subsequent owners that tracked me down looking for information on the car. It turns out that the documentation that I provided with the car was not passed on to the subsequent owners.
        That's one of the points that I tried to make when promoting the idea of an I.D. plate for 'Tribute' engines. If the verbal/paper trail is interrupted.......the future prospective buyer of this expensive Studebaker will be considering purchasing something that sure looks like an R3-4 but, well, who knows what it truly is/was?

        Comment


        • #49
          When reading the posts on this forum I noticed the R3-R4 roster Jim McCuan posted was dated 2012 and had 176 line items. I have edited the R3-R4 roster recently and current list is dated 5/19/2013. It has 3 additional line items and contains edits and corrections after discussing the cars with Nelson Boves at South Bend this past May.
          Now I just found out this forum will not accept .xls files so I'll have to figure a way to attach scans as .doc pages?
          John Shanahan

          Comment


          • #50
            I bought B-109 new from Paxton in the fall of 1969 ('still have the original receipt). When I checked with Paxton, I spoke with Joe Granatelli. He told me that they could supply only one more R3, but they were out of genuine R3 pistons so it would have to have the original pistons that were used in the Due Cento (R5) engine. He said that one side of the top of the piston was at normal R3 height and the other side was lower...this would result in a compression ratio of 8 1/2 to 1 instead of the stock R3 compression of 9.6 (or 9.75, according to AMA and museum specs).

            I said "OK", bought the engine, and installed it in Avanti R-3371, the car Ed George now has (same engine still in the car). When I installed it, it ran poorly below 3,000 rpm but came on strong above that. When I wrote to Paxton, Joe answered me and said I had the stock cam, but when I removed it, it was definitely not stock. I replaced it with a stock cam and it ran great at all rpms.

            Later, I removed the heads and found that Joe had accurately described the pistons. It's likely that what they sold me was the core (block and heads) of the original R5 engine, cam and all, although I can't prove it. But with the radical cam and genuine R5 pistons, it seems likely. Also, it needed a valve job after just a couple thousand miles because a couple of exhaust valves were burned. This makes me suspect that the engine had been run hard before I bought it. BTW, Joe G. told me that B-109 was the last R3 they could build.

            R-3371 with that engine once outran a 427 Chevelle on the top end on the Indiana Tolway, but don't tell anybody.

            George
            george krem

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by R3 challenger View Post
              I bought B-109 new from Paxton in the fall of 1969 ('still have the original receipt). When I checked with Paxton, I spoke with Joe Granatelli. He told me that they could supply only one more R3, but they were out of genuine R3 pistons so it would have to have the original pistons that were used in the Due Cento (R5) engine. He said that one side of the top of the piston was at normal R3 height and the other side was lower...this would result in a compression ratio of 8 1/2 to 1 instead of the stock R3 compression of 9.6 (or 9.75, according to AMA and museum specs).

              I said "OK", bought the engine, and installed it in Avanti R-3371, the car Ed George now has (same engine still in the car). When I installed it, it ran poorly below 3,000 rpm but came on strong above that. When I wrote to Paxton, Joe answered me and said I had the stock cam, but when I removed it, it was definitely not stock. I replaced it with a stock cam and it ran great at all rpms.

              Later, I removed the heads and found that Joe had accurately described the pistons. It's likely that what they sold me was the core (block and heads) of the original R5 engine, cam and all, although I can't prove it. But with the radical cam and genuine R5 pistons, it seems likely. Also, it needed a valve job after just a couple thousand miles because a couple of exhaust valves were burned. This makes me suspect that the engine had been run hard before I bought it. BTW, Joe G. told me that B-109 was the last R3 they could build.

              R-3371 with that engine once outran a 427 Chevelle on the top end on the Indiana Tolway, but don't tell anybody.

              George
              What an interesting story!......Threads such as this one bring stories out that otherwise We may never hear.

              Comment


              • #52
                R3-R4 owners roster 2013 b

                I scanned my Excel files into .jpeg images of the 5 page R3-R4 Roster 2013b.
                They are attached with this message.
                John Shanahan
                Attached Files

                Comment


                • #53
                  Thanks, John. I was hoping you'd check in. Sorry I haven't been by lately, but hoping to get a little more rope soon. Seems like every time I go out of town a few days everybody gets excited. On a related note, I'll be going to Wilmington again the first weekend in July, lol.

                  Back to the thread. Now that more folks are aware, I hope we can convince you to publish some of your research, compilations, indexes and bibliographies. It's a worthy project that I would be proud to assist with should you need help.
                  Jim
                  Often in error, never in doubt
                  http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                  ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by jlmccuan View Post
                    Thanks, John. I was hoping you'd check in. Sorry I haven't been by lately, but hoping to get a little more rope soon. Seems like every time I go out of town a few days everybody gets excited. On a related note, I'll be going to Wilmington again the first weekend in July, lol.

                    Back to the thread. Now that more folks are aware, I hope we can convince you to publish some of your research, compilations, indexes and bibliographies. It's a worthy project that I would be proud to assist with should you need help.
                    This is good......this is good!!!!!!!!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by R3 challenger View Post
                      I bought B-109 new from Paxton in the fall of 1969 ('still have the original receipt). When I checked with Paxton, I spoke with Joe Granatelli. He told me that they could supply only one more R3, but they were out of genuine R3 pistons so it would have to have the original pistons that were used in the Due Cento (R5) engine. He said that one side of the top of the piston was at normal R3 height and the other side was lower...this would result in a compression ratio of 8 1/2 to 1 instead of the stock R3 compression of 9.6 (or 9.75, according to AMA and museum specs).

                      I said "OK", bought the engine, and installed it in Avanti R-3371, the car Ed George now has (same engine still in the car). When I installed it, it ran poorly below 3,000 rpm but came on strong above that. When I wrote to Paxton, Joe answered me and said I had the stock cam, but when I removed it, it was definitely not stock. I replaced it with a stock cam and it ran great at all rpms.

                      Later, I removed the heads and found that Joe had accurately described the pistons. It's likely that what they sold me was the core (block and heads) of the original R5 engine, cam and all, although I can't prove it. But with the radical cam and genuine R5 pistons, it seems likely. Also, it needed a valve job after just a couple thousand miles because a couple of exhaust valves were burned. This makes me suspect that the engine had been run hard before I bought it. BTW, Joe G. told me that B-109 was the last R3 they could build.

                      R-3371 with that engine once outran a 427 Chevelle on the top end on the Indiana Tolway, but don't tell anybody.

                      George
                      One question George,.....It's long been said that the 'Due Cento' threw a rod through the side of it's engine block at Bonneville. I have no idea if that's really what happened. But if the engine at Bonneville did 'blow', then the engine that Joe Granatelli sold You in '69 couldn't be the same one.....could it?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Greg Cone has the R5 engine, at least the block. It has had to be repaired as the pan rail was broken. I supplied him with nearly NOS R3 pistons (Forged True) several years ago. He was going to mill them to match what Andy did for the R5.
                        Bez Auto Alchemy
                        573-318-8948
                        http://bezautoalchemy.com


                        "Don't believe every internet quote" Abe Lincoln

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I knew that but had forgotten the whole story. Somewhere I have pictures of the repairs. That's the biggest reason to spend time now digging this stuff out.
                          Jim
                          Often in error, never in doubt
                          http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                          ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I know of at least one R3 locally,
                            but I don't see the name on that list.
                            It's a legit engine from Paxton.
                            I'll have to get the numbers...




                            StudeDave '57
                            StudeDave '57
                            US Navy (retired)

                            3rd Generation Stude owner/driver
                            SDC Member since 1985

                            past President
                            Whatcom County Chapter SDC
                            San Diego Chapter SDC

                            past Vice President
                            San Diego Chapter SDC
                            North Florida Chapter SDC

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              To StudeDave57:

                              This is what I like when a forum thread turns up more subject data. Please do report on here the vehicle description, cyl block serial number and any history about the R3 you know about not on the roster yet and I will update the roster data base with it.

                              The forum rules just asked me to add 10 more characters to this message to meet minimum requirement.
                              John Shanahan

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by StudeMichael View Post
                                Every other post on this forum is about your I.D. tag campaign. I am amazed at your obsession.
                                Well Mike,...It's like this...There have been several articles written over the years about Studebakers equipped with the R4 engine. Mainly Avantis. Two come to mind right away, but I'm not going to mention the owners names here......
                                (or anywhere else). Both cars have/had 'clone' R4 engines, that internally are really still R-2's with perhaps an overbore on the re-build. Externally, of course, they appear to be 'R4'. Then bezhawk posts a thread with the title 'R4 Progress' (Or something like that) and that did it......The 'clones' (Or TRIBUTES as bezhawk named them) MUST (To Me anyway) be identified and labeled for what they are.....a Studebaker engine modified to satisfy the tastes of it's current owner. NOT THE EXTREMELY RARE ORIGINAL ARTICLE!!! If these engines aren't 'tagged', it WILL lead to confusion in the future.

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