Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

R3-r4 roster

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    B109 was driven to a fathers day show today. Has the R5 pistons in it .Ed

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Mr Speed 53 View Post
      B109 was driven to a fathers day show today. Has the R5 pistons in it .Ed




      Last edited by mbstude; 06-16-2013, 06:38 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Thanks for posting the picture Matt ! A friend asked if I would take 75K for it like Avanti #4 sold for recently and my son and Cyndi both said no ! Its a keeper. Ed

        Comment


        • #34
          There are some number gaps in John's registry. No one can state with any documented certainty what the last B block's number was. No one can state if once a number was stamped and for any reason the block became unfit for sale and destroyed that that number was reused. So there is no way to determine if those missing numbers were ever finished blocks. With those things in mind, John will not state that the list is complete. In addition, some of the last known whereabouts of these blocks is getting to be a while back and engines get scrapped, sold, lost, put in a different chassis, etc. Therefore, the list certainly has some inaccuracies. Some blocks sold as loose blocks have never been put into a chassis also. Some of the A blocks are in the roster, but I believe, at last count only 3. We have been told there were 5 and 10 blocks by folks who were there. Some A blocks received B numbers as well.

          Please credit John Shanahan if you display or publish part or all of his roster. There have been other folks who have been consulted on the updates over the years including John Hull, Nels Bove, Ron Ellerby, Bob Palma, George Krem, and many others, I'm sure. But John makes it a priority to track these down, compile and update them. He has many more projects similar to this, most Studebaker, but one other I've seen is on the gigantic theater organs from the silent movie era. Very interesting guy. Bob Palma, you should do a story.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by jlmccuan; 06-16-2013, 07:31 PM.
          Jim
          Often in error, never in doubt
          http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

          ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

          Comment


          • #35
            Updates to the roster below include the Bove Daytona's R3 as tested by Hot Rod and the B block that was in the car when Nels bought it. Makes it easy to start the rumor that the B series engine is short for Bove, lol.
            Jim
            Often in error, never in doubt
            http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

            ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #36
              Thanks for posting John's roster Jim. John must have spent many hours assembling this information. However, it does confirm what I said about Paxton's (Studebaker's) record keeping of these rare engines being a bit 'sketchy' at best! An excellent reason to add an I.D. tag to any re-creation of these amazing old engines. A builder not doing so is only creating more confusion for future generations! Thanks Jim.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Mr Speed 53 View Post
                Thanks for posting the picture Matt ! A friend asked if I would take 75K for it like Avanti #4 sold for recently and my son and Cyndi both said no ! Its a keeper. Ed
                Great looking Avanti, Perfect wheels! Is Matt saying that the B-109 engine in it is an R3 with R5 pistons installed?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Every other post on this forum is about your I.D. tag campaign. I am amazed at your obsession.
                  Originally posted by SN-60 View Post
                  Thanks for posting John's roster Jim. John must have spent many hours assembling this information. However, it does confirm what I said about Paxton's (Studebaker's) record keeping of these rare engines being a bit 'sketchy' at best! An excellent reason to add an I.D. tag to any re-creation of these amazing old engines. A builder not doing so is only creating more confusion for future generations! Thanks Jim.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I guess I don't understand about the tag. So, we would tag an engine that was not an R3/4 to what end? To prove that it isn't the real deal? Or tag the original to prove it is the real deal? Either way it's kind of like asking "Do you still beat your wife?" Neither way proves anything. The tag will not prove or disprove anything. If we are protecting the novice buyer and tag the real deal, he doesn't know there even is a tag and a tag would be the easiest part of faking it. Or, "This engine is so original, it doesn't even have a tag." Anyone who really wants to can fake any auto part. Stamped part numbers or serial numbers? Please, it's done a lot. Even in the day, the factory left replacement block stamping areas blank to be stamped by the dealer with the original block's number. Got a block that's stamped wrong? Grind it down and restamp, weld it up, grind it back down flush and restamp. Casting numbers? Don't get me started. I've already posted one that passed judging at International meets. Weld and die grind what ever number you need. Keep a researched and continually updated registry? What if the block is one of the numbers not on the registry? Easy enough, John is still finding B and A blocks after tracking these things down for 50 years, plus, nobody knows where the numbers end. Only allow an engine to be certified as the real deal if it has unimpeachable documentation? Pretty tough to prove a block wasn't blown up the first time it ran and replaced with a regular block restamped to match. Making a fake engine look real enough to fool a novice is easy. Making a fake to fool an expert just requires more money for real R3/4 pistons, rods, etc. Numbers on parts or numbers in a registry will not stop a crook. The best one can do is try to verify any claims made using factory docs, rosters, interviews with previous owners, etc.

                    As to records showing how many R3/4 engines made it to South Bend, maybe there yet exists some shipping manifests. That list would be gold to Studebaker performance fans. Of course, an enterprising type crook might spot an opportunity and photoshop one. It would just be letterhead, paper, some signatures included with just enough real data to "prove" that an engine was one of the units shipped to South Bend and sent back to Paxton's using one of the numbers that isn't on John's roster. Bingo, instant provenance. Even easier than faking the casting numbers and serial numbers. Maybe even put in a couple of other numbers to "discover" in the future.

                    I do agree that one should provide documents of all modifications made on their cars and include them with the other paperwork when sold. Especially when those changes make it appear to be a more valuable, rare, or highly equipped unit. In the end, all future owners benefit. If you want to do that with a tag, I've seen tags with a small form to stamp in specs the car was built to and when. Or, just keeping nice records on paper with the registration.
                    Jim
                    Often in error, never in doubt
                    http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                    ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SN-60 View Post
                      Great looking Avanti, Perfect wheels! Is Matt saying that the B-109 engine in it is an R3 with R5 pistons installed?
                      Not putting words in Matt's mouth, but yes. And there is great provenance to back up that story.
                      Jim
                      Often in error, never in doubt
                      http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                      ____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________http://rabidsnailracing.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by SN-60 View Post
                        Great looking Avanti, Perfect wheels! Is Matt saying that the B-109 engine in it is an R3 with R5 pistons installed?
                        Yes.. That's Ed George's Avanti. Decades ago, it belonged to George Krem, who installed B-109 after buying the engine from Paxton. It was the last R3 sold with R3 heads, and it was built using the pistons from the R5.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I guess I don't understand about the tag. So, we would tag an engine that was not an R3/4 to what end? To prove that it isn't the real deal? Or tag the original to prove it is the real deal? Either way it's kind of like asking "Do you still beat your wife?" Neither way proves anything. The tag will not prove or disprove anything. If we are protecting the novice buyer and tag the real deal, he doesn't know there even is a tag and a tag would be the easiest part of faking it. Or, "This engine is so original, it doesn't even have a tag." Anyone who really wants to can fake any auto part. Stamped part numbers or serial numbers? Please, it's done a lot. Even in the day, the factory left replacement block stamping areas blank to be stamped by the dealer with the original block's number. Got a block that's stamped wrong? Grind it down and restamp, weld it up, grind it back down flush and restamp. Casting numbers? Don't get me started. I've already posted one that passed judging at International meets. Weld and die grind what ever number you need. Keep a researched and continually updated registry? What if the block is one of the numbers not on the registry? Easy enough, John is still finding B and A blocks after tracking these things down for 50 years, plus, nobody knows where the numbers end. Only allow an engine to be certified as the real deal if it has unimpeachable documentation? Pretty tough to prove a block wasn't blown up the first time it ran and replaced with a regular block restamped to match. Making a fake engine look real enough to fool a novice is easy. Making a fake to fool an expert just requires more money for real R3/4 pistons, rods, etc. Numbers on parts or numbers in a registry will not stop a crook. The best one can do is try to verify any claims made using factory docs, rosters, interviews with previous owners, etc.

                          As to records showing how many R3/4 engines made it to South Bend, maybe there yet exists some shipping manifests. That list would be gold to Studebaker performance fans. Of course, an enterprising type crook might spot an opportunity and photoshop one. It would just be letterhead, paper, some signatures included with just enough real data to "prove" that an engine was one of the units shipped to South Bend and sent back to Paxton's using one of the numbers that isn't on John's roster. Bingo, instant provenance. Even easier than faking the casting numbers and serial numbers. Maybe even put in a couple of other numbers to "discover" in the future.

                          I do agree that one should provide documents of all modifications made on their cars and include them with the other paperwork when sold. Especially when those changes make it appear to be a more valuable, rare, or highly equipped unit. In the end, all future owners benefit. If you want to do that with a tag, I've seen tags with a small form to stamp in specs the car was built to and when. Or, just keeping nice records on paper with the registration.


                          I guess that about sums it up. There's also an additional element here for me; micromanagement. I can't stand micromanagement. It's enough I get it in reality, now for some reason, it needs to come to my car hobby? There is an element that makes all of this fun for me. But when the automotive version of the "rivet counters" start demanding that I start putting little metal tags on everything that I own, well that just sucks the fun out of the hobby. For now, I'd like to build an R3 using modern materials, I know a few longtime shops in the Chicago area that will do that, no problem, especially one that's built Studebaker engines aplenty. I have an empty JTS 289 block I bought from Harbit many years ago, just for this purpose. The only issue is the funding of course, so the project is shelved until I really get the "life ball rolling". Keeping paperwork, great, beautiful, do what's always been done in engine builds, keep the specs in a binder in the event it blows up, and needs to be torn down again. I have fine functioning printer that will handle that. But having to stamp and restamp, or buy a bunch of tags to stamp, and restamp, well for me, this is bordering on needless busywork, I mean I outta be labelling what antifreeze I use, what brake fluid is in the reservoir, and what brake and fuel lines I replaced in the car too, because they aren't original to the vehicle either, and be damned if I don't do these things, because I found this kinda documentation bordering on obsessive. As an off example of how bad this could get, my '55 has been extensively modified. It's not a 259, it's a 289, it has no column shift, it's got a floor shift, It's intake and exhaust ports were somewhat polished, but contain a welded in split in the center exhaust port. The exhaust system isn't stock by any means, it has two Mitsubishi turbos, runs an EDIS crank ignition system instead of a regular distributor, runs port injection instead of a 2 or 4 bbl, is on 12V instead of 6V, uses an aftermarket ECU and display in the console, and so on and so forth. I keep records of the photos, Megasquirt literature, Megasquirt software, and all pertinent information(which I should print to a binder) on the PC, as well as the VE and Ignition maps, should something crash on the ECU. The heads have also been swapped from the original 289 heads, to the 259 heads that I extensively modified, back to its original 289 heads, that I slightly modified, and the intake manifold has been pulled on and off the car quite a few times. I like doing these sorts of things, without the necessity of buying a whole buncha little tags, or anybody breathing over my shoulder, or doing and redoing the stamped documentation on a little strip of aluminum(well it's gonna be a tape roll by the time I get done with it) everytime I change something, it sucks the fun out of both maintaining and driving it. For me this is a hobby, an interest, not another means to shuffle extra paper around
                          . Plus, if I'm called a bad boy for not wanting to partake in adding tags to all my stuff, so be it. I wasn't one to take demands very well, and I have quite a few extra skills above and beyond checking my oil, and filling my tires!!
                          1964 Studebaker Commander R2 clone
                          1963 Studebaker Daytona Hardtop with no engine or transmission
                          1950 Studebaker 2R5 w/170 six cylinder and 3spd OD
                          1955 Studebaker Commander Hardtop w/289 and 3spd OD and Megasquirt port fuel injection(among other things)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by SN-60 View Post
                            Thanks for posting John's roster Jim. John must have spent many hours assembling this information. However, it does confirm what I said about Paxton's (Studebaker's) record keeping of these rare engines being a bit 'sketchy' at best! An excellent reason to add an I.D. tag to any re-creation of these amazing old engines. A builder not doing so is only creating more confusion for future generations! Thanks Jim.
                            I do not see much value in adding an ID tag stating a clone/replica/tribute engine. All a later owner has to do is remove the tag and it becomes an original engine.
                            Gary L.
                            Wappinger, NY

                            SDC member since 1968
                            Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Mr Speed 53 View Post
                              A friend asked if I would take 75K for it like Avanti #4 sold for recently...... Ed
                              Have your friend give me a call.
                              Last edited by JBOYLE; 06-17-2013, 09:46 AM.
                              63 Avanti R1 2788
                              1914 Stutz Bearcat
                              (George Barris replica)

                              Washington State

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by jlmccuan View Post

                                I do agree that one should provide documents of all modifications made on their cars and include them with the other paperwork when sold. Especially when those changes make it appear to be a more valuable, rare, or highly equipped unit. In the end, all future owners benefit. If you want to do that with a tag, I've seen tags with a small form to stamp in specs the car was built to and when. Or, just keeping nice records on paper with the registration.
                                I have taken the time/effort to document all of the changes that I have made on a car, including year and model of various parts. Then I have gotten calls from subsequent owners that tracked me down looking for information on the car. It turns out that the documentation that I provided with the car was not passed on to the subsequent owners.
                                Gary L.
                                Wappinger, NY

                                SDC member since 1968
                                Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X